INTRO
Welcome to Artful Conversations – a podcast about arts and cultural management. Annetta Latham and guest hosts interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture. We share their stories, their insights and observations. This season has been brought to you with the support of the faculty of fine arts and communications at MacEwan University.
ANNETTA: Welcome to Artful Conversations. I’m your host Annetta Latham. Today my guest is Julian Mayne. Julian is the Executive Director of Arts Habitat Edmonton, a non-profit company engaged in developing and managing affordable and appropriate space for all arts disciplines.
Julian’s extensive arts management career in Edmonton spans 40 years in the performing arts. He has had the pleasure of working in music, theatre, opera and dance as a production manager, stage manager, fundraiser, composer, props master, performer, presenter, general manager, and Executive Director.
Julian was a member of the team that built and managed the Winspear Centre and ESO, and has provided strategic planning consultation to many Edmonton arts organizations and festivals, and has served on many boards including; the Edmonton Arts Council, the Arts Touring Alliance of Alberta, Edmonton’s Firefly Theatre, Shumka Dancers and currently Quarter Arts Society.
For service to his fellow citizens, community and country, Julian was awarded the Queen Elizabeth II, Diamond Jubilee Medal.
ANNETTA: Welcome, Julian, and congratulations on your award for the Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Medal. That's extraordinary and congratulations on that.
ANNETTA: Thank you so much for joining us today and really talking about Arts Habitat and what it is that you do there. Really, it's a little bit of a mystery, I'm sure, to some people. So, can you kind of explain to us what is Arts Habitat? What is your mission and your vision and what is that you do in your day to day?
JULIAN: Arts Habitat is a small organization that focuses specifically on the creation of space for the arts and it was created back in 1997 when the Edmonton Arts Council was created.
JULIAN: And the reason it was created was because the Edmonton Arts Council's focus was not specifically or even peripherally, really on space. And at that time, the council wanted to create spaces for the arts. There was a need, as there always is. And there was one building specifically that required potential management, but also just ensuring that an arts hub was created in an affordable way and the Edmonton Arts Council didn't have that skill set. So, Arts Habitat was created specifically at that time to manage ArtsHab One which was the first sort of live work studio space in downtown Edmonton and it has expanded and progressed since then. But it's basically about identifying, managing and building appropriate and accessible spaces for the arts in Edmonton.
ANNETTA: So, does that mean is it somewhere where an artist can come and have like a studio space or is it where a theater company can come and perform like a venue kind of space?
JULIAN: The focus is all disciplines. So, it could be also literary, it could be video, it could be film, really. It is about any space that is used for artists of any discipline to create, work, perform, and it really is about making space that is appropriate and accessible and appropriate is about, you know, if you are a dancer, you need a space that's appropriate for that work. And that space is different than what's appropriate if you're writing a novel or if you're doing a recording or if you're doing a performance. When we create space for health, for instance, an operating room needs specific tools and specific processes in the room that make it possible to do that work. A dance studio is very much the same and that sometime is lost in the conversation about, well, let's just create space for the arts. Sometimes we have space that's not appropriate for the arts, and often artists will take whatever they can get and sometimes it's not safe space necessarily or the right space. : Yeah, that's very true. So does that relate to on your website, there's notes that the organization is an art social purpose enterprise. So does that kind of what you're talking about, about ensuring that it's the maker creative space in the right space. Does that kind of explain what arts social purpose enterprise is? Have I defined that or.
JULIAN: Yeah, you know, the concept of a social enterprise, real estate is really about addressing the significant challenges in finding and securing appropriate and affordable space for not-for-profits. We of course are focused only on the arts, but all not-for-profits have that challenge of real estate and social. It really encompasses facilities, you know, whether they're owned or rented, leased or licensed, whatever. It provides a space that for not-for-profits that serve our society. So, it is about really giving a home to the arts in our case and giving a home that's affordable so that it's not being taken away, but more than that, that it's also affordable and on an ongoing basis from an operational standpoint, that it's not burying the organization in operational issues and finances.
ANNETTA: And you know, in the current climate that we're in, that's a really major issue for a lot of solo artists, but also smaller arts organizations, also the major organizations as well. That kind of affordability, operational kind of things that like you say, you can get lost in that sometimes and not have the space to create. So, for you, what are some of the key programs and projects and resources that Arts Habitat offers?
JULIAN: The very first building that I spoke of, ArtsHab One, was a live work studio space of about, I believe it was 16 spaces and it closed its doors in 2014. It was a leased space, that the building itself was sold and purchased by somebody who was not so arts friendly and so the rent went through the roof and we had to close it down because it no longer was affordable. This is a common theme in art space, so that provided inspiration for future arts habitat projects. So, we have two very concrete items, buildings, Arts Hub 118 Housing Co-operative, that is 16 live work, apartment style units. There are approximately 750 square feet and they're just above the Nina Haggerty Center on 118th. That's been going since about 2012.
JULIAN: And it's a cooperative. they are basically running the building and managing the space and the acceptance of applications and that sort of thing. But it's a cooperative, so it has its own unique way of operating. That's Arts Hub 118 and so we maintain that and it's all part of that whole working space above the Nina. The other space that we have and own is McLuhan House in the Highlands. And that's on 64th Street. It's a heritage home that was restored by Arts Habitat with support from the city and the Social Enterprise Fund, which is an arm of the Edmonton Community Foundation. So that space is really focused on the literary arts at the moment. YouthWrite and the Poetry Festival make their home there. It's the home of the McLuhan Family Portrait Gallery, which was donated by the McLuhan family. And it is also part of our McLuhan House Studio Program where we offer a studio. Since 2016, we've been offering it at no cost. So, we have one artist that comes in, a resident artist for the year, and they get to use the space and it's free of charge and they can use it however they wish. You know, people have used it in multiple different ways. Of course, they've been very creative with it, but there's been some really nice successes and some nice changes that have happened over that year. When you give an artist a space, and you go here, just create, right. This is like a bit of a dream come true because nobody really does that.
ANNETTA: Yeah, no, there's usually a hook isn't there, at the end somewhere.
JULIAN: And the nice thing about this is both Lauren Crazybull and Aeris Osborne, who were artists in residence there, have now moved on and were recognized as Alberta's artist in residence and arts ambassadors by the provincial government.
JULIAN: They were just at a point where they just needed space to work and create, not be disturbed, and that kind of pushed their career forward.
ANNETTA: Yeah, it must be wonderful for you being part of knowing that your part of a journey like you say, that can provide the space and the place to allow an artist to just expand and explore their craft.
JULIAN: It's really important. This is the salient point is to create that sort of freedom, to allow the creativity to happen. And I would say that ArtsHab One, which was the original, Arts Hub 118, does the same thing. You know, we have live work studios there. We have artists that are living there creating; they have a space to work in and so on and so forth. It's nice to give affordable space as well to organizations that are doing great work like the YouthWrite, The Poetry Festival.
ANNETTA: Oh, absolutely. And I know my listeners are dying to know how can they get on the list and get a space?
JULIAN: You know that we have an ongoing input. At the very least, we get a notice from people who are looking for space. To get on the list, we have a long list and we have a long need for spaces in Edmonton. We have people who are performing artists that are coming to us and literary artists and all these different disciplines. The lists specifically to get on Arts Hub 118 Housing Cooperative because it's a co-operative; they handle that list and I believe they have a couple of vacancies at this point and that's a good thing, too, you know, because people use it, need it, and then they grow and they move on to other spaces. So, that's good.
ANNETTA: Yeah. And it goes back to saying before about giving people the freedom to explore.
JULIAN: Absolutely. Since about 2012, we've been working with the city on the Orange Hub, which is still developing its spaces, and we handle the professional artists eligibility designation for that. And what that allows is professional artists to get a reduced rate at the Orange Hub.
JULIAN: The City Council had a reduced professional artist rate, so we handled that, and also working with the Orange Hub on the design and creation of some new studios over there. And the next biggest project that we have on the table that we've been working with the city on since 2018, is the rehabilitation of the Ortona Armory. And we've been involved in the consultation design and construction rehabilitation, not the internal construction. So, really excited about this because this is really the big, big project for us that's coming up. And it'll open in 2024. It'll have studios, it'll have a new performance space, it'll have rehearsal rooms, workshop rooms. Yeah, it's exciting, and right in the River Valley, so it breathes new life into that building for the next hundred years.
ANNETTA: And what an exciting, what an exciting project. That's incredible. And Julian, you've touched on that. You know, it sounds like there's a lot of work that Arts Habitat does on partnerships. And one of those partnerships that I'm aware of is with the Edmonton Arts Council. Firstly, let me say an incredible congratulations to yourself and the team at Edmonton's Art Council for you won the award for the for the best cultural planning in Canada, really from the Creative City Network of Canada. And it's The Connections and Exchanges, a ten-year plan to transform art and heritage in Edmonton. So, congratulations to you and the team. I think it's an extraordinary award to win.
JULIAN: It was a long year of work. 2017. Really led by the Edmonton Arts Council, the Heritage Council was a very active participant in this and I think it's fair to say that the three organizations put this together. But there were hundreds of people involved in the actual input of this document. They did a tremendous job of reaching out to the community to just get all of the information on, you know, where people wanted to go with this plan.
ANNETTA: So, from your perspective, what were some of the kind of key learnings out of a process at a municipal level cultural planning process?
JULIAN: I think some key things were trying to get arts and culture spread throughout Edmonton, but that there are needs in all of the neighborhoods and all of the communities and this idea of a, you know, a 15-minute world that we could live in in our cities. I just saw another news article yesterday about this, the idea that we should be able to walk and bike to sort of get all of the services and what we need so little small centers within the city and that was one of the thing that came out for me as well as Arts Habitat's work with the City Plan was very much this idea of nodes within the city. I think the plan reflects that intent that really to kind of reach out and grow the arts and heritage, but also do it not just sort of central, but do it throughout the city.
ANNETTA: Yeah, I know.
JULIAN: So, I think that's important.
ANNETTA: Yeah, I really like what you're saying, that in that work, it means that a cultural plan at a municipal level also can be grounded back into community and belong to the people in community, and they can kind of find themselves somewhere in it. Like you say, when there is a community hub or node, as you called it, happens within a within, you know, a dog walk from your own house.
JULIAN: Yes. Like a dog walk.
ANNETTA: You know. And you know, when it's happening with a dog walk from your own home, it actually you kind of it resonates with you as a person who lives in that space and that neighborhood and doing what they do. And, you know, I think what you're talking to is real values and benefits of cultural plans, which I think are really absolutely critical. For you from an Arts Habitat perspective, what's the impact of that plan for you as an organization?
JULIAN: I think one of the key points for Arts Habitat in this is the creation of a cultural infrastructure plan. And that infrastructure plan is really about; number one in looking at what we have for infrastructure. And then you get into that whole conversation of, well, what is cultural infrastructure? Is it just the theaters or does it extend to the heritage? Does it extend to religious infrastructure? You know, how far do you take that? So, I think, number one, defining that, I think is really important what the cultural infrastructure is. But I think what it gives us is a focus over the next ten years of, number one, identifying what that cultural infrastructure is, but also that in combination with what are the needs, what are we hearing that the people need, that the communities need, that artists need, so on and so forth. And then how do we close that gap? So, it really is about creating the infrastructure and finding the resources. There are so many other things in this plan about the heritage and about a huge part of this plan is about all of the truth and reconciliation focus and working with the Indigenous communities. And Arts Habitat has had, you know, three wonderful years of having an Indigenous voices circle and we're learning from them and helping us to focus on that. It's a very wide and massive conversation when you get into cultural infrastructure.
ANNETTA: Yeah. Very much so. Very, very much so. So, to dip into that very wide conversation, how are you kind of steering the ship and developing that infrastructure plan? And what is the purpose for the plan at the other end, you dipped on it a little bit in relation to understanding what's out there and what people need. Is there kind of a you know; this is how we're doing the plan to be able to have this solution focus? Is that kind of the direction you're hoping to hit on with this idea?
JULIAN: We started with trying to understand what other municipalities across Canada into the states, UK, what had they had done for our cultural infrastructure. And you would be surprised at the variety of what cultural infrastructure plans. I'm sure you've seen a few.
ANNETTA: I've seen a few.
JULIAN: Probably been involved in a few.
ANNETTA: Written a few actually.
JULIAN: And you've written a few. So, one of the interesting ones that we found, I think, was Vancouver. Their cultural infrastructure plan that they wrote a few years ago actually identified square footage as a measurable. And I think that's a very bold kind of statement in a cultural infrastructure plan where you go, we have identified X amount of square footage used for cultural and we're going to increase that by X amount over ten years.
JULIAN: So, it's a very tangible measurement and I think part of the challenges is how you measure these things. And, you know, you would guess that most cultural infrastructure plans are kind of the same in that they sort of say we need more cultural infrastructure and we need to support culture. Everybody seems to be willing to support it, but when the rubber hits the road, it really comes down to dollars.
JULIAN: And that I think is the biggest challenge. But there's, you know, Annetta, there's so many different facets of cultural infrastructure that there's different ways of helping cultural infrastructure. So, planning tools and programs, regulations, zoning bylaws, all of that can get in the way of people creating their own cultural infrastructure. Edmonton has done bylaw review, zoning review recently and Arts Habitat finds it's one leg in the property development world. So, it's a really fascinating mix of the arts and property development. Planning and policy makes a big difference to how a city can grow its infrastructure. There's the capital and operating. Property tax is a huge thing. It's a tremendous burden on an organization to have to pay property tax and if the municipality can lift some of that burden, it encourages this growth. So basic financing and then, you know, where do we build it? Municipally owned buildings and operated facilities. Edmonton is very unique in that it really doesn't have a lot of municipally owned operated facilities. The Winspear Center is not municipally owned. The Aberdeen Art Gallery, the Art Gallery’s not, the Citadels not, our three major centers are not municipally owned which is different than a lot of municipalities, right?
ANNETTA: Very much so.
JULIAN: Then we've got private developers who are some are interested in return on investment and others are interested on, you know, how do we create some social purpose, real estate, how do we do a break-even kind of thing on real estate.
JULIAN: So, facilitating development partners is really big. And you know, there's all these aspects that can help move the cultural infrastructure along. It's not just about, well, let's build a theater. You know, ‘cause there's a lot of really great work that's being done by people, but they get blocked by perhaps municipal bylaws and that sort of thing where they're trying to do something creative. Oh, and we're not just talking about bricks and mortar. We're also talking about outside spaces, outside amphitheaters, just found spaces, right.
JULIAN: So it's really fascinating. That is.
ANNETTA: Oh, and it's one of the things that I find fascinating in listening to you talk about all of this is that conversation around cultural value and who's whose culture.
JULIAN: Exactly.
ANNETTA: Whose culture is the value? And what is the value of the culture? And who defines that? And like you say, with what Vancouver's done, you know, to have to take an intangible of what is cultural valuable, an intangible and turn it into a tangible as defined by square meterage is an extraordinary.
JULIAN: Yeah.
ANNETTA: It's an interesting approach to, you know...
JULIAN: It is.
ANNETTA: The value of culture. But I want to come back to some of what you were talking about before around barriers and really what for you, do you see in your work as some of the most common barriers that creative workers and creative not-for-profits kind of come up against and trying to find space, use space, sustain space in Edmonton.
JULIAN: The biggest barrier has got to be affordability. I have always taken the approach through and I've had some experience in facility management and in the arts in Edmonton specifically that there is plenty of space in Edmonton. It's not that we have a lack of space. We have a lack of affordable space and in some cases, we have a lack of appropriate space. But affordability is really the bottom line. The other aspect is sustainability. What we see often is that somebody will move into a space and it's fantastic. They just want to be organic. They want to create in the space and the space isn't demanding a lot of them. A developer maybe has a building that, you know, they're willing to give out for $5 a square foot because they're just sort of holding onto the building until they sell it. That's the problem. The artists get established in the building and two years down the road they get a notice. You've got to be out in a month because we've sold the building. So, sustainability is really important for me and what I like to see is actual ownership so that you have control of that building or a very, very long lease.
JULIAN: Not that there isn't value to space that is kind of pop-up space, right, where somebody can create. But I'm really sort of talking more about space that's more sustainable and is there for the long run. And to me, I think ownership is important to that.
ANNETTA: Yeah. And it's kind of that ephemeral versus permanency conversation that happens around a lot of things. Like you say, it happens around space, it happens around public art, it happens around a lot of stuff. And space, space is important. And you know, when you know, you've mentioned the Winspear and the Citadel and those things that are kind of, you know, in inner cities, those spaces to give a light that become cultural clusters. But when you when the city doesn't own them, it's kind of an interesting conversation about how do you create what is the cultural cluster and how that works and how space works. One of the things that you've kind.
JULIAN: Let me just say I just want to make a point here about Edmonton, is that it is unique. It's an odd space. Edmonton is because it’s a unique city in that, you know, the Fringe Festival started here in Edmonton after Edinburgh and I think it started here because of our location and we have buildings that are mainly arts buildings that are mainly operated by non-municipal entities. And that's really different and it really sort of speaks to what a very unique thing about Edmonton that we kind of just, we build it and we don't necessarily have a lot of the municipality is there but it's not running it. And it's the same thing that happened with the Edmonton Arts Council. The Edmonton Arts Council was one of the first councils created outside of the municipality that gave the municipal funding to artists. When it was created in the nineties, it was really a very unusual model that the municipality would hand over money to an outside organization, theoretically outside organization to hand out the money, right. The granting money. So, Edmonton is, it’s very unique in that way on many levels, you know.
ANNETTA: I agree with you and I think it's a fantastic secret segway into talking about, you know, the how do you maintain strong partnerships? What are the key elements around that? And like you say, that arm's length major arts granting organization, which is what the Edmonton Arts Council is, I think is extraordinary. And it is quite unique and still unique globally. And it's it is, you know, how do you, for you as Arts Habitat who have been in a journey and you know, going back to your introduction. You yourself have been part of the Fringe, you've been part of the Winspear and quite a number of things. You know what for you do you see is the kind of key elements to maintaining those strong partnerships to really continue the uniqueness that is Edmonton.
JULIAN: I think it's one of the reasons that people come to Edmonton and stay in Edmonton or they're in Edmonton and they don't leave. And I think what I find is that it is a little bit of the pioneering spirit that we're kind of just going to do this ourselves, gosh darn it. And, you know, we want a Winspear; we'll just go out and raise the money for it. And I think in a lot of ways it's an appealing thing about Edmonton. And I mean all of that in the kindest way. I think the municipality is very supportive of it and I think what it does is it really sort of focuses if you can find enough money to pull together to fund an art gallery or a theater, it really means that the community is behind it, that it's not just redirected funds through a municipality, but when you've got support from a wide community, it helps in the success. So, I think as far as stakeholders and partners go, you know, of course, you really need a clear scope of work and clear communication in between those entities. But having a really strong understanding of what we're trying to achieve, I think is vital to having the good partnership and stakeholders.
ANNETTA: I think that's I absolutely agree. How do you then pull the work that you're doing down into local community engagement?
JULIAN: It's work that we have more to do on that. Arts Habitat is learning, you know, about advocacy. It's learning about partnerships. I think one of the things that we're finding is, for instance, working with private developers on space is having a really clear understanding of the scope. Having a clear understanding we're creating a space that's affordable and sustainable and a developer has to get their head wrapped around that, that the return on investment is not going to be as great as they want out of that building. And so, you can sort of net out the conversation very quickly at the beginning to have that sort of clear understanding of, you know, this is what we're trying to do. And you don't go down the road for months on end, ending up in a space that doesn't work because, you know, the end results are not what everybody wants. I'm being somewhat convoluted.
ANNETTA: No, no, I think that's really important because it goes back to what you were saying before about that sustainability and resiliency of making sure the spaces are the right spaces, the appropriate spaces and safe spaces.
JULIAN: Yes, all of that.
ANNETTA: Yeah. I mean, you're in a kind of a fantastic world, really, where you've got like you say, you've got your foot in a bit of property development, you've got your foot in a little bit of not-for-profit. And you know, that relationship with the municipality, the relationship with the key funder. And then it's certainly I can imagine you must have some very interesting days with all of those hats.
JULIAN: You know, and really what I'm finding after being with this organization since 2013 is that it really is about closing the financial gap between what artists can afford and what investors want to get out of out of a building, whether it's the municipality or whomever, whether it's property taxes or, you know, the investment from venture capitalists that are putting their money into a building. It's the same thing. It's closing that gap between $10 a square foot and $26 a square foot. And how do we do that? That's the bottom line here. You know, we do a lot of advocacy. We have artists that, you know, we have ongoing input into our organization from artists who are looking for space, working with a lot of the groups and creating case studies. For instance, the Roxy, the Varscona buildings like this who are creating new spaces, we want to capture that information when other people do it so that there's some learning there. Zoning bylaw, we've been involved in that. The city planning we've been involved in, creative hubs across Canada we network with, and yeah, the Edmonton City Plan of course the 50-year city plan, which says Edmonton's going to be 2 million down the road here.
ANNETTA: Yeah. That’s extraordinary.
JULIAN: I don't know if I'll be around for that 2 million.
ANNETTA: It’s a challenge to wrap your head around that really. That many people, that many cars.
JULIAN: That's right.
ANNETTA: Yeah. I really like you know; I think one of the things that, you know, you are coming back to and really reinforcing is that role of advocacy and how important that role is for Arts Habitat and to be in the room, in the conversation.
JULIAN: Yes. And there's an advocacy level that just is to the general public. People who are not involved in our sector. I was talking with a fellow who is in the construction industry he said to me, what do you actually do? And I said, we create space for artists to live and work. And the first question that I had was, well, how many artists are actually making a living doing art? Like, is there anybody that's really doing art? what do you mean? Like, this whole concept of somebody growing up and wanting to be an artist and wanting to have their primary income come from the arts is a somewhat foreign thing. And yet we put on records, we watch movies, we read books, but there's this disconnect between, well, how are these things made?
ANNETTA: Yeah, yeah. Who designed them?
JULIAN: I think we need to be really aware that we can get really siloed in thinking that everybody thinks that art space is really important when in actual fact they may not even understand or have no clear understanding of what we're actually talking about because they have no experience of that world. Their experience is perhaps the art that happened at school that they worked on. You know, in elementary and junior high. And not everybody has to be an artist and not everybody has to do this, but I think we generally as a sector we struggle a bit with getting everybody to understand how what we're doing and how we do it and why it's important and buildings are part of that.
ANNETTA: They absolutely are. And so, what would you like to see is the future for Arts Habitat or for and for Edmonton really in the arts and cultural sector?
JULIAN: You know, I think I'd just like to see steady growth, steady support. A interesting study came out today from Hill Strategy saying that, you know, the bulk of the arts have now returned back to their pre-pandemic levels. In fact, a very odd thing that I found was that film and video are actually at a higher percentage of than they were in 2019. Sound recording books, theater and performance is coming right back up to the pre-pandemic levels. When I think about the arts, I'm thinking about income and I'm thinking about stability and how do we make those two things work? You know, these are self-employed artists generally is what we're talking about, self-employed people. So, you know, making it easy for them to do their work and their market can be very small. You're not necessarily going to get the income back for what the amount of time you put into the art. So how do we help that? And I see infrastructure as a really important, easy aspect to support those artists. It's one expense that they can say I don't have that expense, I've got all the other expenses, but I know that I can show up and this is affordable for me here.
ANNETTA: Yeah. Julian, this has been a wonderful, wonderful chat. As we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add to our conversation?
JULIAN: No, I don't think so. We've touched on pretty much everything.
ANNETTA: But the one thing we haven't touched on and it might be asking you, you know, which is your favorite child? But, have you got a favorite project or a favorite artist that you've worked with it at Arts Habitat?
JULIAN: All of the artists are fantastic. I've spent my life on the production facility side of the equation. I'm a musician myself, but my life has been spent sort of supporting the artists in that way. I get a lot of joy out of that of just working in that space. Also, the inclusiveness of the arts is something that I was drawn to very early that, you know, basically anybody and everybody is accepted. And that's a wonderful thing, I think about the arts. I've got to say, I'm really excited about the Ortona Armory and when that opens, it's going to be a brand-new venue and I think it's going to be a real shot in the arm for Edmontonians. So, I think it'll be an exciting space in the River Valley area there. So that'll be fun and provide a lot of support for the arts.
ANNETTA: It's absolutely wonderful. Julian, I want to thank you so much for your time. It's been a delight talking to you.
JULIAN: Always a pleasure, Annetta.
OUTRO
This show was created by executive producer and host Annetta Latham, Technical Producer Paul Johnston and research assistants Terri Le Gear, Micah Carter and Ian Small.
Theme music by Emily Darfur and cover art by Constanza Pacher. Special thanks to MacEwan University for their support and to our guests. Arts Conversations is a production of Artful Creative, all rights reserved.
REFERENCE
Latham, A. (Executive Producer and Host). (2022, November 1) [Season 3: Episode 02]. Julian Mayne. Podcast retrieved from: www.artfulconversations.com