INTRO
Welcome to Artful Conversations – a podcast about arts and cultural management. Annetta Latham and guest hosts interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture. We share their stories, their insights and observations. This season has been brought to you with the support of the faculty of fine arts and communications at MacEwan University.
ROBIN: Jesse Wente is an Anishinaabe writer, broadcaster, speaker and arts leader. Born and raised in Toronto, he is a member of the Serpent River First Nation. Jesse is best known for his 24 years as a columnist for the CBC Radio's Metro Morning. Jesse spent 11 years with the Toronto International Film Festival, an outspoken advocate for Indigenous rights and First Nations Metis and Inuit art. He has spoken at the International Forum of Indigenous Peoples, Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian, the Canadian Art Summit, the Cultural Summit of the Americas. He was recently appointed Chair of the Canadian Canada Council for the Arts, the only First Nations person to ever hold the position. Jesse was named the first Executive Director of the Indigenous Screen Office in February 2018 and actually recently published a book that I'm a big fan of Unreconciled. So, hello again, Jesse. Welcome.
JESSE: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
ROBIN: Great. So can you talk about what led to the relatively recent creation of the Indigenous Screen Office or ISO in 2017? The organization's mandate and what is meant by narrative Sovereignty?
JESSE: Sure. So the Indigenous Screen Office really came about after about a generation of advocacy on the part of Indigenous screen storytellers in Canada. I say a generation because the advocacy started right about the day after Australia announced the opening of its Indigenous Screen Office, which was about, well, now about 30 or so years ago in the early 1990s. And right after that, I think a lot of, you know, people in the TV and film sector in Canada started advocating for this sort of agency or organization that would exist to primarily serve well, exclusively, really sort of First Nations, Metis, and Inuit storytellers in the screen sector. It came about ultimately, after all of that advocacy, you know, the federal government announced it in 2017, I suspect, you know, as part of their attempt to, you know, respond in some way to the TRC, although I, I wouldn't frame the work the ISO does necessarily as reconciliation work at all. Maybe, more on the truth side of things. But that maybe that's a different question you have. So as announced then, I was named its founding Executive Director sort of in February. So, it's only been around, you know, five or so years, but it feels like it's been an idea that's been around for a very long time. And it was just a matter of actually getting that idea, sort of getting buy in to that idea from the people who sort of have always run the screen sector in Canada around the governments had, and so, you know, I think that's sort of why it came about. In terms of its mandate, its mandate is to support Indigenous screen storytelling in the Canadian media sector, particularly through a lens of sovereignty, and so, because we're a organization that expressly supports storytelling, we speak about this as narrative sovereignty, meaning, you know, the idea that a nation or a community has the ability, the means, the support to tell its own story for its own sake, which, you know, at least in terms of my own personal approach to this, really came about.
You know, the term the ISO uses. It's a term I started using even before I started working with the ISO, although I wouldn't claim that the idea originated with me at all. It's just more of it was a way to discuss the dynamics of storytelling and ownership and responsibility and obligation that comes with storytelling in a more in a framework that felt more akin to way the Anishinaabe might see this issue, as opposed to the frame of cultural appropriation, which is really a colonial act and a colonial system or part of its a tool in its system and frankly is not that interesting to me. I think it's much more interesting to discuss narrative sovereignty and what we mean by that, because cultural appropriation is the way in which our narrative sovereignty was taken away, was stripped from us. And it is absolutely part of the colonial process that occurs and that as those stories are stripped away and we're impeded from telling those stories, other stories and other storytellers are fostered in order to replace those stories and hopefully erase them. And, you know, this is an act of process that still goes on in these places, both Canada, the U.S., you know, it's a global it's a colonial thing. So everywhere colonialism is touched, you're going to find very similar sort of things underway. So, you know, for the Screen Office, I think it was just rooting itself, embedding it because ultimately Indigenous people, First Nation, Inuit, Metis people, are sovereignty seeking people. We are not seeking equity and having sovereignty is the sort of fundamental base of our mandate, of the mission of everything means that you always act like the ideas that we should always be acting in a way that reflects that we are coming at this from a sovereign place.
ROBIN: So you mentioned at the beginning of your response there that there was perhaps a relationship to the truth, part of truth and reconciliation. And I know this is something you talk about in your book, is that relationship between truth and reconciliation and perhaps why reconciliation might not be the path forward. Could you speak to that a little bit?
JESSE: Sure. I mean, I named my book Unreconciled. So obviously I have some, you know, thoughts and feelings about it. And I want to be clear. It's not that I think reconciliation is failed or that it's bad or that it's not correct. The manner in which Canada is trying to proceed or its definition or maybe more accurately lack thereof of what it is, is makes it doomed to fail. Right. And so I would say and the reason I would say that is because in order to have reconciliation, you have to have truth that this is why the words are married. They are inseparable as a concept. They are inextricable. You simply cannot. Because what are you reconciling? It's not the truth. You can't do it. So. And I think we live currently in a country that where the truth is still a struggle. You know, where and by what I mean by that is what I would say and what I say all the time in talks is that there's really two aspects to truth telling, right? There's the telling of the truth, which is, I would argue, First Nations, Metis and Inuit people have been doing for a long time. It's not a new phenomenon that we're telling truths. It's for a long time. The new phenomenon is that people are listening and maybe even believing some people, right? That's the new phenomenon. Not us telling these truths or not that these truths were unknowable. They've been known and were knowable the entire time. It's a matter of how. It's a matter of the second part of the truth telling. Which is accepting the truth. And of course, the reason that's important is, well, if you never accept the truth, then you always litigate what the truth is, and you never, ever, ever, ever, you don't even get to the end in truth and reconciliation. You are stuck in the first syllable of the first word. You'd never get past it. And of course, you have to recognize that that is a tool of colonialism. They don't wish to get past it. It is not in their best interest to get past the first syllable of the first word in truth and reconciliation. So you have to you know, there are forces out there that for whom the truth will never be accepted.
But you're trying to find some broader acceptance in order to get to the next phase of what is a generational process, right? Like if we were to truly invest in truth and reconciliation, we would also acknowledge that it is impossible that one government in one term can do it. That's not real. That's not a real thing. It's that every government from now on, just as every government previously had invested in not reconciling up until including the very moment you and I are speaking today. Right. Every government from this moment forward would have to invest in doing it in order to counteract it. And I think, Robin, we can be honest to say that that isn't actually reflective of how Canadian politics, how politics work in Canada. Right. Like that a political party could change and the “investment” Canada, “investment” in quotes. I’m doing air quotes for the listeners that Canada is currently making in reconciliation could absolutely disappear overnight. So. What are we? You know, that does not seem like a process that is set up or at least an approach to a process that's actually set up to succeed. And again, I don't know if. See, this is one of the truths I think Canadians it's important for Canadians to understand.
Is it you know, we're not we don't have truth and reconciliation. We didn't have the Truth and Reconciliation Commission because any government wanted to. They lost a court case. And it was part of the court decision that they had to have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. So it's not like any government in the history of this place has ever entered willingly into this process. They don't they are not going to willingly do it either. If it's if Canadians want it. If Canadians think it's valuable and I think they should, because I think if you want Canada, the path, this is the pathway to it. If they want it, they will have to make it a thing that happens. And, you know, I'm not sure. I think we see some evidence of that, but I think we see an enormous evidence, still a very large scale institutional pushback towards the truth, let alone the actual reconciliation of the truth, let alone the reparations or restitution that would have to occur in between the truth and reconciliation to either, you know, get any of those things like, you know, again, I think it was in a national newspaper this week, Robin, where there was a front page editorial asking after the Canadian government acknowledged that residential schools was an act of genocide. There was a front page article or editorial in the largest newspaper chain in the country suggesting that was wrong and ill advised.
ROBIN: I did not.
JESSE: So. Well, you should go look. And then you would. You would see that, like, you know.
ROBIN: Yeah.
JESSE: We might understand why someone like me might title their book Unreconciled and why that might be. We might remain that for like, you know, and I say this to Canada, not so much to the Anishinaabe. Canada has every possibility that it will remain unreconciled for its history.
JESSE: Now, the interesting thing, of course, Anishinaabe, were here before Canada. Anishinaabe will be here after Canada. So, like, it's sort of Canada's thing to figure out whether it wants to reconcile, because, again, reconciliation is actually not for our communities. This is a time of healing. And again, to the point that we started of what truth would our communities actually be reconciling in this moment? Our job is to be the towers of the truth and to heal everyone else's job, to figure out what to do about the truth that everyone has just heard. So, you know, in terms of the ISO, it's storytelling. So and you know, it's storytelling that through Canadian public policy was actually against the law for many years, right within the Potlatch ban, the residential schools sorts of stuff, our stories, our ability to tell stories was radically oppressed. Like, I don't think we can actually have a debate about that like that. These were laws that are on the books for generations, and all of the cultural infrastructure around storytelling was in Canada, was built during while those laws were on the books. Right. Like the Potlatch Ban lasted from 1885 to 1951.
So what was founded at that time? Well, that's every major art gallery, every major museum, the National Film Board, the CBC. Like, it's everything, pretty much the Warren Commission, the sorry, the you know, the Massey Commission was started just as that era was ending. So, like, you know, the idea that the ISO would in any way be reconciliation. Like, it's just not. It's barely equity. Like we're still not fully funded to the degree that we requested and we didn't request some amount that was made up. We requested what was needed. So like, yeah, I guess that's why I would always resist any positioning that this is sort of an act of reconciliation. Like when you, when you've literally outlawed our storytelling, allowing us to then do it isn't like some you don't get a big pat on the back. I don't think you deserve a big pat on the back for that.
ROBIN: Fair enough. Well, thank you for that response. Within your first answer, you talked a little bit about the advocacy that went into the creation of the ISO. And advocacy is still at the center of what the ISO does and is acknowledged as a really important factor in its creation, as I said. So what do you believe are the crucial elements of fostering support for a cause? So what is needed for an effective advocacy campaign?
JESSE: I mean, I think you need. I mean, I have always found the truth to be a very effective way to advocate. I would say I have always framed my advocacy in simple facts that are sort of you know, again, you and I just discussed the history in Canada. Like, none of nothing I said is conjecture. Like, that's all just…
ROBIN: Documented fact.
JESSE: Documented fact. You can go look at the laws that were on the books and like all like it's and so and you know so I think make you know, basing arguments in fundamental truths and pointing those to those things, but also communicating in a way that allows people in to understand, you know, why it's important to you, but also to them, because here's the thing with, you know, here's the fundamental truth about the, you know, a fundamental truth. I won't say the fundamental truth, but a fundamental truth about First Nations, Metis, and Inuit people in relation to the state like, you know. There is a way for it to work, right? Like, you know, there's a framework in which it can be successful. Non-adversarial. I would suggest the choices have not been Indigenous people who end up where we have been. So like and I would also say that it is only the colonial mindset that has seen our sovereignty, our success, our whatever, our health as a threat or something that might be bad.
And so, just like that, I would argue Indigenous storytelling is not just a benefit to us and our communities. Of course it is, but, of course it is to everyone else. Just like I would think it was pull, pull a story everyone will know. Just like I think the creators of Star Wars didn't think that it was exclusively a story that would benefit a narrow group of people. Like, I don't know, people on another planet. Like they didn't make it for the citizens of Tatooine. Right. They made it for they thought, hey, you know, this is something other people might benefit from. Right. Like, this is why I get attracted to do art and storytelling, because no point is in the practice of it you're acknowledging that someone outside of yourself might benefit from this whole thing and isn't a consumer of it. I'm acknowledging that that story, which may come from a totally different universe than my existence, speaks to me somehow. I'm able to engage. I can look at a painting from centuries ago and have the felt be have it move me right in a way. So, the point is like the what I would say around advocacy is also trying to frame it so that can people see how it affects them. And the truth is around a lot of these things is we're affected by all of these issues. Right. Even colonialism. Colonialism affects literally everyone on the planet. Everybody.
JESSE: But it is often framed as something that, like, well, Indigenous people or black people are the ones that. Really. Sure. I mean, we're the targets of it. Less than the beneficiaries. But it's also a myth to think that the beneficiaries only benefit from it. They've also been incredibly harmed by it. And so, it's understanding that the pathway to Canadian culture, the pathway to Canadian sovereignty has always been through a relationship with the people that were already here, have always been an acknowledgment that those cultures might actually lie at the center of this culture, because those cultures are rooted literally in this place in a way that Canadian culture struggles to be because it came from somewhere else. Right. And so and it's just like the legitimacy of Canada as a state. Like, Who are we kidding? Who actually would do you think? Who would, even if you logically thought about it, would it make sense that that actually lies with it probably lies with the nations that were already here when Canada decided. But we weren't, of course, included. And so it's this trick that I think colonialism has played on literally everyone, where we've turned everything into competition, into a win loss, into this profit and loss statement, where the idea that in order for someone to win, someone else must lose. In order for one person, one group to benefit, another group is inherently taking a loss. And that just is not a truism. That's a capitalist thing, but that's a human system. That's not actually how the world works.
And so I think part of it is also framing your issue so that people can understand that even if it's not them specifically, it still impacts their life. Right. The truth is, in Canada, Canada would be in a much better place if Indigenous communities were healthy, were well tended if we had schools and drinking water. And again, I don't think that's a hard statement for Canadians to understand and go, yeah, you know, that's true. Right. It's hard to then it can be hard if you say if you sort of frame it in a way where people have to take necessarily all the responsibility for those things, because living people may not be responsible for those things, but you can also give them the responsibility of making it better. And so, like, I think there's always a way to frame these issues to be with a word that I don't naturally enjoy, but when it comes to advocacy, you do want to be inclusive in that even the people that you need to change you have to be able to frame it so they understand why them changing is to their own benefit and not just yours.
ROBIN: I'm actually really glad you talked about that and the non-competitiveness because there's this, there was a conference I was at, you were on a panel with the Executive Director of the Black Screen Office and at one point you stopped the conversation to just say, I just want everyone to hear, you know, give, give her money. And I actually embedded the video in a couple of courses because it was such a demonstration of exactly what you're talking about, of the for one to succeed, the other doesn't have to fail. And just you working to elevate everyone.
JESSE: Well, you know, Robin, I do not believe in the scarcity mindset that colonialism and capitalism would like to embed in us. Right. Meaning that I sort of, in the Anishinaabe tradition, actually believe the world is one of abundance and wonder and amazement and like it could totally support all of us if we would just live in right relations with it and one another and that like that we don't have to be without that that it's just not true. Everyone can be can be with it. It's just not. I just don't buy into those at least any longer. And granted, it's taken a life led and therapy and all sorts of other things, lots of ceremony and teachings to fully sort of embrace these this these ideas.
But like, it's certainly how I understand the world now. And so likewise, you know, I'm someone who was working my entire adult life in the Canadian cultural sector. It is a sector that I would say suffers from a scarcity mindset, one that is very much imposed onto it. Right. And so, you get this idea that like, well, you know, if ISO gets this amount of money from the government, well it’s only going to give out so much money. So, then the Black Screen Office can't get. Well, who says, like, what are we talking about? Like, in what world is that even true? Like, like the Heritage ministry spends, has multiple billion-dollar annual budget. The ISO is asking for, received what, $40 million over three years? Like, that's almost a rounding error. Like, the BSO isn't asking for something great. And I even reflect on this in my recent decision to step down from my role at the ISO because I've been in the cultural sector long enough, worked at many institutions where I have seen leaders stay in jobs and I think for a variety of reasons, for a variety of reasons, but one of those reasons that I would say is true is that there was also a feeling like, well, I'm at you know, I'm running a major organization. I'm running a major funding body. This is it. Like, I've reached the top. Where else would I go? Like, there's no other job like this. And, you know, they're not wrong. Like there is no other job like running the ISO. But I guess I'm also of the opinion that like, it's not my job to have forever. It was never my intent to have it forever. I want other people like I would like other organizations to also be run by Indigenous people. If I stay in a job that could train a whole legion of arts administrators for years to come, but I stay there because I'm scared of like I can't get another job or something. Well, then actually, I'm impeding the very progress that I'm so desperate to see. And so, I don't have a scarcity mindset. There's more than enough jobs to go around. There's more than enough stories. There's more than enough. All of it. And I do not in any way need to cling to mine. And nor do I think the ISO has to behave in a way where it's protectionist over what it has.
We want to see transformational change in the sector and that to be to include our cousins. And I don't think that's too much to ask after all of these years. And I think we don't it's too often this is again framed as like, well, someone will have to lose out. No. The reality is, if you say that you're suggesting that stories told by these other communities are somehow less valuable than the stories that would have been told by the people we would have invested in traditionally. And none of that is true. Right. Like, none of that is true. Right. The we need all of this. And so, yeah, I just don't see things that way, and I'm trying to, I've tried to impart that in the way the Indigenous Screen Office has operated. I try to impart that in the way the Canada Council sees things as their Chair, even though, you know, I'm obviously not in charge of day to day operations, but I try to, you know, I start every board meeting saying, thanking everyone for bringing them whole selves and for representing their community and for us, for keeping our communities at the center of everything we do. So that the idea is like it's if the Canada Council could do greater good by sharing than hoarding than share, like what are we doing? Like it's always to me about what? What are we doing? What is the goal in the end that we're trying to achieve? And I can't get wrapped up in worrying too much about like, how much of that goal do I own? I don't own any of it. I don't care to own any of it. What I care is that it is achieved. And if I need to lock arms with other people. Like that's that is the way humans work. Like, that's just. We are community animals. We do not. So. I'm trying to embody that organizationally, as someone who has been, is in, and has been in leadership positions and honestly, just as a parent and like as a human, to just be like, no. Like there's so much space for everyone. A great line that I heard. I'm sure it was like on one of those means on Instagram, but I think is so true, which is like. I can't be in competition with you because I want you to win, too. And that is just how I am leading my life. Like I want you to win. I'm not. I'm not here to beat you at anything. I'm here to for you to win because I know that you winning, that helps me, and that is the truth with all of human.
When we lift each other up, everyone benefits. When we push each other down, everyone is harmed. Like, that is just the way it works. And if we could build our systems and adapt our systems to that understanding, which would mean that some people maybe would. It's not that anyone would go without. It's that some people might have to go with slightly less just so in order that people don't go without. Right. Like, that's what it's about. And so. Yeah. So I'm glad you embedded that. I didn't imagine that ever, because I don't. I guess for me, I don't find those things that profound. I sort of think like that's like a yeah, we should just be doing that. Like, it's okay to do that. Like, that's sort of the way we should be acting with one another.
ROBIN: Great. So you mentioned in your response there your role at Canada Council. Do you have any specific plans or goals that you would like to achieve in your remaining time there?
JESSE: I mean, I'm not sure there's any that I will publicly declare in this forum.
ROBIN: Okay.
JESSE: Because, you know, because here's what I would say. I mean, the Canada Council in my tenure as Chair has released a strategic plan. You know, it's what I would say is, like, if you want to see. I guess I would say is if you're interested in what my plans are, maybe look at what the Council is doing. And that might be your best indication of what my goals and plans sort of were. And I would also say like that it's not that I'm the only one pushing these things. You know, it took a lot of consideration and discussion with my circle to even agree to become Chair of a crown corporation. You know, it's not something I ever sort of imagined. And there's a lot of questions I still have about it, to be honest, around the role sort of there. But I felt comfortable doing it because the Canada Council had already sort of demonstrated its own desire to change and had already taken those some of those steps, you know. And so I think that already, you know, because I'd been on the Board before I became Chair. And so having that window, you know, allowed the decision to be like, this is an organization that understands. What I think needs to be done and understands sort of my perspective has people there that are already sort of doing that work. And so I'm interested in, you know, continuing that. And so, you know, in terms of that, I would look to the strategic plan, look to, you know, look to what is happening. You know, the Canada Council, you know, recently we had our first in-person board meeting in the entire time of the pandemic and we held. Yeah, and we held it in Yellowknife.
ROBIN: Oh, cool.
JESSE: Yes. The first time that we'd ever done that, we took the entire board, went to Yellowknife, went to Inuvik, went to Tuktoyaktuk. So yeah, I guess I would say look at what we're doing as an indication of sort of what I think is important and some of my goals. You know, the reason the Northern trip was for the Arctic Arts Summit. But I also thought it was really important for the Board. You know, I realize, Robin, that and it's funny to say this is sort of. I want to see a relatively recent, relatively recent understanding for me is that, like, you know, most people have not been to an Indigenous community.
JESSE: I guess as someone who's been to like a bunch of them, I sometimes I can forget that other people just don't go there because it's like, oh, what do you mean this literally every time. But because, you know, sometimes we can get myopic in terms of like, well, my experience is everyone's experience. And so in realizing that, I just wanted the Board to be exposed to that. I think that the artists in the North have long been underserved by agencies in the South, not just the Canada Council, but agencies in the South in general. And so it was important for me just to, you know, I'm a big, you know, if we can show. You show. Because as much as I can sit there and tell people. You know, sitting in the community hall in Tuktoyaktuk, I think is more impactful for the Board to understand what we're doing and who we're doing it for than me just sitting there. So, like, I think for yeah, I would say in. I would say to continue my goals are to continue the work that's already was already started that the Canada Council to see through the strategic plan through my term. We've got a new CEO will be appointed in my term. Those I would say are the main priorities. And the other stuff you can sort of watch, what the council does is a pretty good indication of what I'm thinking. Yeah.
ROBIN: Well, thank you. So finally, is there anything else you'd like to add to the conversation or any advice that you would like to give to emerging arts administrators and artists?
JESSE: Oh, boy.
ROBIN: Big question.
JESSE: I mean, certainly to emerging artists find the most important thing is to be your authentic self in your art. I mean, this is not just for artists. This is for literally every human. Like the biggest struggle we have is our own authenticity in accepting ourselves for who we are. And then and then having the world accept all of that and understand that that's all good. So, I think the more we can put in the effort and help accept other people in but also accept ourselves, I think all of that's good. But for artists like, tell the story, only you can tell, right? Like that's the real. Like, paint the painting that only you can paint. Like, don't paint the painting someone else could paint that's already been painted. Paint the one you can paint. Sing the song only you can sing in the way only you can do it. And that's what, you know, you and Robin and I could, we could discuss, like, our favorite music, and I guarantee all of those singers, all of those bands, like they did it true to themselves. And that's why we are talking about them now, right. So that's that for arts administrators, young, just say that I love you, we need you. I'm so happy that you see a future and you can see yourselves in this. It is really important work and really, I think, rewarding work, and I say this as someone who is, you know, sort of bridges both of those audiences maybe in terms of like I'm a bit of an artist and definitely a bit of an administrator.
And frankly, for many artists you have to do both in Canada. That's how you fund your arts practice by being an arts administrator. What I would say is, you know, I hope we can resolve that so you can just choose one or the other, but also that like if you have done that, you know how rewarding it can be because when you're an arts administrator, that's public service, right? Like and, and I say this as someone who's done you know, public service pretty much my entire public life. Like I, I've never worked for a for profit company. I've always worked for either the public broadcaster or a charity or, you know, and, you know, it's to me, it's, I don't want to say public services, everything, but like service period. Like we live to help each other. Like, that's sort of the secret sauce of life, right? Like is, is when we help each other, I get benefit out of helping someone else and of course they get benefit. They were just helped. But we live in a society that doesn't like, you know, I just had this discussion with my son around his homework and like saying, like, you don't it's okay to get Mom and dad's help. Like, we want to help, and it's not an admission on his part that he's somehow less than or a failure because he requires help.
Like, literally, everyone on the planet needs help. We're humans. We are, as my elders would tell me, we are the frailest animal. We need the help. So, that service, I just want to thank them and encourage them because I do think it is so fulfilling and it's so important and people don't necessarily see that, and you know, Robin, that was another big thing for me in the founding of the ISO is I wanted the organization and I'm so thrilled, you know, Kerry Swanson, who's the CEO now, you know, and my first big hire as the founding director was hiring her because I knew she could do exactly what she's done, which is like, you know, I wanted to build an organization where Indigenous, First Nations, Metis, Inuit people who are interested in arts administration could have a career, who could learn the craft in a place that was literally built for them and by them, and that they could and that serves their communities, their people and that could become a place where you could have a career. It could be a trajectory to something bigger like all of that, and wanted to build an organization that big. I mean, both Kerry and I believe this and you could have a whole different conversation with her. Like, we wanted to build an organization that was unlike anyone we had actually worked at before because maybe we didn't love all the aspects of every organization. So, we wanted the aspects we loved and not do the ones that we didn't love, you know, and try to build something that felt and is different and operates a little bit differently and is trying to just be something that reflects us in a more fulsome way, so, like, that means it's advocacy. It means it's a support. It means it's all of those things, which is a very complicated organization for one that's so small and so young. But it's, you know, we just wanted to build something for folks like you're talking about for the artists, young artists so they could be supported by their own community, but also for arts administrators, where they could see a different way to do things and might in a different destination. And I think we've, you know, I think we've done it. Kerry's done it.
And, I hope I've played my little bit, my part in it. And, you know, the other thing I would just say is that I hope all the arts administrators and all the artists know that they're not in competition with each other either, and that, that if they're there together they're starting a long relationship with one another because the artists will be talking to the arts administrators and vice versa for years to come. And I look forward to the stories that all of them are going to tell and help tell for the, you know, the years ahead.
ROBIN: Great. Well, thank you so much for talking with me today.
JESSE: Thank you so much, Robin. I hope this went well.
OUTRO
This show was created by executive producer and host Annetta Latham, Technical Producer Paul Johnston and research assistants Terri Le Gear, Micah Carter and Ian Small.
Theme music by Emily Darfur and cover art by Constanza Pacher. Special thanks to MacEwan University for their support and to our guests. Arts Conversations is a production of Artful Creative, all rights reserved.
REFERENCE
Latham, A. (Executive Producer). Nelson, R (Host). (2022, November 1) [Season 3: Episode 04]. Jesse Wente. Podcast retrieved from: www.artfulconversations.com