INTRO
Welcome to Artful Conversations – a podcast about arts and cultural management. Annetta Latham and guest hosts interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture. We share their stories, their insights and observations. This season has been brought to you with the support of the faculty of fine arts and communications at MacEwan University.
ANNETTA: Welcome to Artful Conversations. I’m your host Annetta Latham. Today my guest is Iris Nemani. Iris is the Chief Programming Officer for Harbourfront Centre in Toronto. As the Chief Programming Officer, IRIS: is responsible for overseeing and delivering the centre’s diverse arts, culture and educational programs. She has worked in the arts and culture sector for 30 years, bringing her expertise and leadership to a variety of organizations. Her career has spanned both not-for-profit and commercial endeavours including Managing Director of PANAMANIA, the arts and culture program of the Toronto 2015 Pan Am/Parapan Am Games, Director of Operations for Dancap Productions, General Manager of the Young Centre for the Performing Arts, and Company Manager for Livent's productions of Ragtime, Showboat, and Phantom of the Opera among others.
ANNETTA: Okay. So welcome, IRIS: . It's wonderful to chat to you today at Artful Conversations. What a wonderful, wonderful history that you have with the Pan Am games. And the list is extraordinary and you've done some fascinating things. But now you are the Chief Programing Officer of Harbourfront Centre, and I was privileged to be a guest of yours earlier in the year where you walked me around the Harbour Centre, and you gave me a bit of an insight into the history of the Harbour Centre. So, could you give our listeners the abbreviated history of the Harbourfront Centre and what is it and where is it and what is its purpose?
IRIS: I'll be happy to. The abbreviated version. Well, let's start with Harbourfront Centre is coming on its 50th anniversary. It is in 2024. It will be 50.
IRIS: And we are located in downtown Toronto on the central waterfront, right on Lake Ontario. And the center is essentially it's a ten-acre campus dedicated to arts and cultural programming and recreational programing, as well, because we are situated on the water and have the opportunity to engage with that waterfront both culturally and through sailing and boating and all sorts of other waterfront activities.
IRIS: So that’s essentially who we are as a centre.
ANNETTA: I'm exhausted already, ten-acres. So, on those ten-acres, what is there?
IRIS: So, the ten-acre site is both open, beautiful open space where we utilize it to do outdoor programming. We have outdoor stages. We have a large concert stage that seats about 1300 folks.
IRIS: Sitting and then another couple of thousand who can stand and watch beautiful programs on the concert stage. And we also have a number of revitalized buildings, buildings that were initially it was a food terminal, this area of the city. And so, they have been redesigned and we now have beautiful soft seat theaters that we can do performances in, whether or not they're intimate concerts or circus performances or contemporary dance performances in the different theater venues. So, we have a 440 seat venue, a 350 seat venue, a 100 seat venue, as well as multiple purpose spaces that can be configured really to anything that you can imagine in and around the space. So is a little bit of everything. Happening on that waterfront.
ANNETTA: Is it? My brain is just trying to think about is there any other space that is as large as that? Like with Southbank in London, be as large as what you guys are.
IRIS: Southbank is a little bit larger, actually, because we are only ten acres, but Southbank is probably the closest sister to us in terms of programmatically. The venues are a little bit bigger. But they have for instance, we have the Powerplant Contemporary Art Gallery, they have the Hayward Gallery, we have they have a number of soft seat venues, but I think their capacities are larger than ours. But we're both on that waterfront.
ANNETTA: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, very unique. Incredibly unique. Really. Very, very unique. So, in your role, what is programming for you within your organization like what does that look like?
IRIS: That's a good question. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. It's a big question, you know, because Harbourfront Centre is multidisciplinary so different than many other organizations that are single discipline focused. We are multidisciplinary and we so we do a deep dive into visual arts. We do a deep dive into craft and design. We have five working craft and design studios that actually support 26 artists-in-residents who are makers in the space. We do programming in contemporary dance, in contemporary theater, in circus. We put on a festival every weekend of summer with a foundation in music. And so programmatically, like, what does programming look like? It looks like really diverse disciplines and diverse genres and diverse peoples on our stages. That's really what Harbourfront is a unique mix of.
IRIS: It's lots of programmatically work that we try to have really relevant contemporary conversations about ideas, about issues, about the importance of what different communities are interested in because we are - the other unique thing about Harbourfront Centre is that it's ungated. So, everyone and anyone is welcome to come on the site. There is no front door. It is an open site. So, everybody is welcome to come and have a seat. More than 70% of what we program is free to the public. And so that's an opportunity for families, for tourists, for just about anyone to come down and experience something new and different that they may not have the opportunity to experience anywhere else.
ANNETTA: And so, pulling all of that down into your day-to-day job, what does a chief programmer do? What is your role?
IRIS: So, my role, interestingly, as Chief Programming Officer, I like to think of myself as a creative enabler. We really believe at Harbourfront that no one has the market on the best idea. That ideas come from all sorts of places. They can come from our programmers. Absolutely. Who are experts in their fields. But it's also it could come from an audience member who has seen something and been inspired by something and wanting to share this idea about what they might like more of.
IRIS: And so we take lots of these ideas together and my job is to, is to steer the ship to make sure that we are being rigorous in the choices that we make, in the artists that we put on our stages and that we that we understand why we are doing what we're doing. So, we do a lot of rigour around who is it for, why are we doing it? Why do we feel its important? And that's a lot of my role is to question. And to make sure that we can stand behind all of our choices.
IRIS: And it may be because it's the, the why is because it's beautiful. Or it might be because it's important to have this conversation today. You know, and everything in between. So, that's kind of my role. And if there are any challenges that my teams have in realizing a vision, I'm there to open the door if it's stuck. And to help figure it out because it's, you know, working in the arts has to be or is I think it also has to be a collaborative endeavor. Like it is not, it can't just be one person on their own doing their own thing. It really is. It takes a village of ideas and folks to come together. And so, my job is to help steer the family in the right direction.
ANNETTA: It's always good to have Mom at the wheel, actually.
IRIS: Because some, because mom needs to make some, some decisions and not everyone is comfortable making some hard decisions.
ANNETTA: And it sounds from what you're saying that your role is very strategic rather than operational in the granular, you know, plug in, plug in the sounds level. So, what for you are some of the challenges in developing programming in such a unique space?
IRIS: Oh, there’s all sorts of challenges. There's always trying to find money to do more. We have many opportunities because we have such a varied site with different kinds of venues. So how do you really animate the venues? How do you animate the site that really can make it really feel like it is the place where everyone wants to be?
IRIS: So that's a one piece of it we're always forever looking to support. In particular, we have a big focus on emerging artists as an opportunity to give emerging artists opportunities to create work, to be on the stages, to build their audiences. So that can be challenging in bringing audiences in because they don't necessarily know the artist that they're coming to see. So there's a little bit of figuring that piece out. Yeah, those are those are sort of the biggest ones. It's money. Well, it's for all of us in the arts, it's money. The more money we have, the more money we can spend.
ANNETTA: Exactly.
IRIS: But then also, how to be thoughtful and responsible in the way we spend our money also. But yeah, those are probably the biggest challenges. And just now coming out of COVID, it's how do we make people, we encourage people to remember the importance of a live shared experience. The value of that.
ANNETTA: And not be frightened of it. So going back to what you were talking about, about, you know, emerging artists and all of those kinds of things. How forward into the future are you programming? Are you working currently now and 18 months into the future, or are you like, how far in advance do you work?
IRIS: It really differs by discipline. So, with visual arts, we work almost three years in advance.
ANNETTA: Wow. Okay.
IRIS : So we are working with artists as well as and in our contemporary dances as well. That's about two, two and a half seasons ahead. Always want to leave room for that special thing that one comes across that you go, oh, I really want to have it right now. But generally, it's a couple of years in advance. Music, on the other hand, is 6 to 8 months because particularly the kinds of artists that we are working with like are planning their tours within the year that they are wanting to perform in. And so that's much later for us.
IRIS: So, it really depends on the discipline.
ANNETTA: So how do you get your ideas?
IRIS: How do we get our ideas?
ANNETTA: No, not we? How do you get your ideas?
IRIS: How do I get my ideas?
ANNETTA: Yes, what do you go and see? What do you do? Well, what do you do that ignites a thing in you? That goes, oh yeah, we could do that. Or, oh yeah, not quite like that. We could bring that to Harbourfront.
IRIS: I have the good fortune of getting to travel all around the world to see. Showcases. There’re arts markets, much like trade shows, but with artists. And I don't want to diminish it by, it's not so much a commodity, but it is an opportunity to see work and meet artists. And then I like to say to lots of folks that what you see in the actual program is like 1/10 of what I have seen in the year. And it's my job to sort of sift through and try and bring what I think will be most exciting or interesting for our audiences. Yeah, because not everything that I go see do I bring. But it's to your point, you see something and you go, oh, this is just so fantastic. I need to share this with, with my colleagues, with my community.
IRIS: Um, so I look for when I'm programming. It's a it's how I spend a lot of time experiencing and looking at how is the audience reacting to the artist. So, there's one element of the art itself, but it's also like, how is the audience really receiving this? And if it's if I see that there's some kind of an emotional engagement, that's the kind of stuff that I'm interested in. I want emotional engagement.
ANNETTA: Yeah. It's interesting you saying that I if I go to shows with my kids, they say, Mum, don't do this thing you do, you know.
IRIS: And what's that?
ANNETTA: It's, it's what you were talking about. It's looking at the audience engagement. It's looking at the kit that's in the room. It's looking at the set up and going is that movable? Isn't that movable? Could I bring that to where I want it to be?
IRIS: Exactly. I think it's the nature of being in the business. Right? Like, what is the magic behind all of this happening? And could I do this?
ANNETTA: It's exciting to hear you talk about emerging artists, for Harbourfront. What do they, what is an emerging artist like? How do you define that? I have a lot of people who always ask me, well, what is an emerging artist?
IRIS: It's a good question because I think that that, I think that definition isn't. I think it's the lens with which we bring to a piece of work. So, when I when we think of emerging artists, they are often at on the way up in their career.
IRIS: You know, we have multiple venues, so my outdoor concert stage does seat a couple of thousand people. So, an artist who is, who is playing the clubs and having about 50 people in their clubs is while emerging in a sense or like on tour, they need to be able to hold the house because otherwise it's a disservice to both the artist and the audience if they can't. So, there's a little bit of looking at their what their experience is in emerging. But it's somebody at the, you know, they're not straight out of school, although there might be some opportunities for them depending on what festival we're doing and how they're situated but they aren't selling out large stadiums.
IRIS: And they are really looking at, they're bringing a contemporary, a current lens to the work that they're doing. And it's not really about age. Like, it isn't a young person. It could be an emerging artist, could be an older person who is just coming to their artwork. That particular medium at that time. Yeah, that's kind of what we look at sort of like, you know, junior to mid-career artists can be within that. But we also program established artists in context with emerging artists because there's an opportunity there both of sharing, practice, learning from each other. Which I think is an important element when you're bringing artists together. Really important. So, we the focus is on emerging. The focus is on really giving opportunity to have residencies, to create new work, to commissioning artists, and to put them on main stages. More and more opportunities in particular for getting on main stages.
ANNETTA: When you when you're thinking about successful public programming, what for you are some of the key components and indicators that you're looking for?
IRIS: I am looking for engagement of audiences. I'm looking for, you know, for a successful program. Is that what you're asking? Yeah. Like what makes a successful public program?
ANNETTA: Yeah, because that the question I get asked by my students here at MacEwan more often than not is, well, what's a successful program? And if it's I guess it's what's the fairy dust, really? It's incredibly hard to talk about it. But, you know, for you. For you as someone who does this as a job, you know, when you think about programing, what for you looks like a successful public program when you go, yeah, okay. We've, we've got that one in the bag for the year. We'll do that.
IRIS: I think, you know, we talk about it a lot, like what is the measure of success? Yeah, it's an interesting like question. So, we sort of define it and there's sort of three elements. And if you have two of three, you've done very well and three of three is rarely happens. But that's really when you feel like you've got a home run. So, we talk about so there's the financial aspect of it. So, whether or not you're selling a ticket. So, if the box office went well, if, if you've attracted sponsorship, philanthropy of any kind connected to it, particularly if it's free, you know, that's one piece of it. Critical acclaim. So, this idea of is it being recognized within the discipline, you know, by our peers, like are our peers looking at the work and going being inspired by or feeling like it's an important thing and that they're really glad that this is happening within the community because I think it's important that we enrich the artistic community itself. Right. And inspire. So, I call that critical acclaim. And sometimes it's also, you know, the critics, whether or not they're saying that it's, well, a job well done or not, like I don't want to disparage critics. I think that they're important, too. It's a dying genre, though, like there are less and less newspapers that are actually engaging critics. So that's also an interesting, you know, perspective. Yeah, that they are. And yet we are in the age, this digital age, more and more of us have become critics.
IRIS: You know, so that so it's that kind of balance. So, there's critical acclaim, the financial box office element. And the bigger piece. The biggest piece is popular appeal. How many people came? Are people interested? How relevant are we? Were they engaged or, you know, and any kind of reaction? Like, you know, they may have loved it, but they may have hated it, too. But there's engagement and that's kind of how we measure it. So, if, you know, people came and they bought tickets, great. If they came and, you know, the community in terms of critical acclaim, we got a great review and or there's conversation within community that's coming out of that particular piece. That's what we think is successful, or where success can lie.
ANNETTA: It's a really good measure. And I like, I like the fact that there's three of them, not 20 of them, because you know that it's easy to carry those three ‘round in your head when you're looking at something that you're doing. So how important to Harbourfront is making sure you've got a communication and marketing plan?
IRIS: Well, it's critical. It's critical because you can have the most incredible program. But if you don't tell anybody, they won't come. So that's what marketing and communications need to do. They need to tell people why and to help. I think a really good communications plan and a good marketing plan helps an audience member imagine themselves in the room seeing that. Whatever it is. And that's what I think really good communications sort of gives you a language up or a perspective that you go, oh, I think I might be interested in hearing that story or seeing that piece.
IRIS: So, it's critical because if we don't tell people, no matter how wonderful it is, that room will be empty. And that's no fun for anybody.
ANNETTA: It's absolutely not. I want to go back to before you mention about sponsors and partners and things like that. How do you strategically plan your stakeholder engagement at Harbourfront? Or do you strategically plan? Or is it a wing and a prayer?
IRIS: It's a little bit of both. I know. I think that there is a strategic thinking around our stakeholders when we have a number of different stakeholders. So, there's the stakeholders that are our community right around us. So, we are a, you know, a ten acre campus on the waterfront, but we are surrounded by condominiums and buildings, people living in their residences all around us. And we are their backyard. So how do we think about that engagement of the folks that are right there with us in our communities? So that's a piece that we often think about, particularly with our free outdoor programming. How do we engage and look at the kinds of folks? There's more and more families. So, what kind of family programming can we offer to them?
IRIS: But it's also when we think about our developed partners in terms of corporate sponsorship, it's also thinking about how do our values align. It’s a lot of important work that we do and thinking about, you know, who are we as Harbourfront? What is the work that we're trying to do and who as partners makes sense to come on the journey with us? Really important for us at Harbourfront and for the artists. I think. So, while these partners don't, they don't, they are not programmers. Although some like to be programmers. But we do really value support. So, whether or not that are, you know, finding ways in to really work together with our stakeholders is really important. Because we are not an island. We are part of a community. And it's important that we have buy in from the community, that the community feels like they that they see themselves there as part of that. This is their place and you can only do that through engagement.
ANNETTA: One of the very unique things that you have at Harbourfront is that you're a cultural destination for the City of Toronto, which means you have that extra layer of cultural tourism. So how does that play into things when you're thinking about programming? Do you factor that cultural tourism element? I mean, it's quite unique to be a cultural destination. That's a very unique thing. And what that like you say that bring you know, that that is a commuter the tourism community is a community in its own right. So, for you as a programmer, how does that cultural tourism impact on the way your programming stuff?
IRIS: I think it impacts it in terms of appreciating the diversity of cultures and communities that come and visit Toronto. And also, the fact that Toronto is one of the diverse, most diverse cities in the world globally and wanting to showcase that. So, we actually we, we do a lot of collaborations and partnerships with, um, you know, you can come to Harbourfront and see a beautiful Persian theatrical piece that's completely in Persian.
IRIS: You can come and celebrate with our we have an annual summer festival called Habari Africa and, and that kind of work that, you know, African artists from the both from Africa directly, but also living in Canada and the African diaspora who are with us performing. So, I think that that becomes a unique piece for tourists to come see, like what is Toronto? Toronto is made up of so many neighborhoods and communities and they're all showcased like that's how that informs our programming.
IRIS: A lot it is. We really try to be less Eurocentric, but that is an important element. But really also other voices are presented at Harbourfront, which I think as a cultural destination, a tourist destination is an important piece for folks because they feel like they are, um, they can speak their language, then they are welcome on our site and there are communities like them on our site who are welcome there. So, I think that that's an interesting piece. I think also the ungated, it's one of the it's the only place on the central waterfront that you can walk right down to the water without having to pay for access to that water. And as a sense of place is very important as we know, like so many waterfront cities. Right, that access to the water and being able to engage with that waterfront. Is an important piece as a cultural destination.
ANNETTA. I want to go back to the talking about emerging artists and also about, you know, you are a significant, significant player in the Canadian cultural sector. How do you and then how do you connect with getting Canadian art out of Canada into the world? Does Harbourfront have kind of a mandate or drive to want to get emerging artists and get them out? Or is it or is it more centralized, focused at Harbourfront?
IRIS: I think there's an aspiration and we have through the 50-year history, done some work in terms of supporting artists, emerging artists on more international platforms. It's less the work that we do, although we have been starting to talk about doing international showcases of work. So, in Junior, for instance, which is our International Children's Festival, we're talking about an international program where we invite international presenters in and showcase some of the Canadian work that is happening in Canada. More and more, we are starting to you know, I think about we just created a new festival called CoMotion, which is an international deaf and disability arts festival that had its inaugural festival in April.
ANNETTA: Oh, that is congratulations.
IRIS: Thank you. Yeah, that was quite, uh, it was exceptional. It was exceptional to be able to have to really focus all of the artwork and all of the artists who were all part of the deaf and disabled community. Disabled artist community. And really have a range of work and be able to commission a lot of new work that then inviting presenters in, even local presenters to say, you know, let me introduce you to these artists. That's a lot of what we do. Well, it's not formal in the sense of a presenter’s program simply putting these artists on our stages.
IRIS: Marketing them alongside, you know, you've got Angelique Kidjo and you know, Buffy Sainte-Marie, let's say on one side, right. Like, our on our stages, but then you've got some fabulous, you know, local musicians who are, you know, like Housewife, for instance, or, oh, I mean, I won't go into the specifics, but we've got lots and lots of artists. We probably engage about a thousand artists a year. So, it's that. So, it's less formal. More local on our stage. But hopefully people are watching.
ANNETTA: And you know, I and I that really resonates with me because it's not it's not for it's not a forced agenda. And it goes back to what you were saying earlier, to be really focused on the emerging artists, focus on what it is you're doing, focused on engaging in the conversation. And, you know, I think that that in itself is an incredibly courageous place to be for a programmer, because it yes, the world's a little safer with the critics disappearing. But, you know, there are some conversations out there that are incredibly hard and incredibly challenging to engage with. And there's always a critic.
IRIS: Absolutely. And one of the things, you know, that Harbourfront can do that like a city cannot, is we can take a lot more risks. We can take risks with the work, risks with the conversation. And also, you know, we are a major institution in the country. And so, it is not lost on us. The importance of by giving a play to an artist on our stage, they can then go off and build a tour around that saying, you know, we're playing at Harbourfront Centre this summer.
IRIS: You know or we have played at Harbourfront and that the it just helps build their CV also and gives other programmers, oh, you played there. You know I'm going to give you an opportunity as well. So, because we are colleagues together in this ecosystem.
ANNETTA: Yeah, very much so. The Harbourfront Centre is a model of urban regeneration and revitalization of where it is. And you gave us a little touch of that and the history that you explained. What is are there any plans for any further redevelopment or any directions moving forward about how to kind of continue that revitalization of the downtown and that space around the Harbor Centre?
IRIS: Well, we were we have a couple of years ago. We're given while we're given, we applied for and received a significant grant from the federal government for state of good repair. Because the federal government really understands the importance of this place for the country, really. So, we have we've upgraded our seating in our concert stage, which will make it just a better space to perform in. We are making it a much more accessible site, so accessibility physically is changing, so that will be good. We're also really committed to our sustainability strategy. This idea about how do we deliver work responsibly? Where is our place in that in terms of our carbon footprint, the way we present, the way we work?
ANNETTA: Yeah.
IRIS: It's interesting. Somebody coined for me a phrase recently that I think is very much what who we are and where our future is going. And it's this idea of we think of cities having an infrastructure and we have infrastructure budgets to build our roads and to put in our water systems and our traffic lights and so forth. But what we are at Harbourfront and what many, what culture is, is really thinking about it as we are the infrastructure of the human spirit. And that's the if we think about ourselves and the work that we do is that we are really critical to that infrastructure of the human spirit of our collective communities.
IRIS: That's what I think the future is. If we keep thinking about like that's what we at Harbourfront, that's a lot of what we're talking about now. So how do we shore up the infrastructure and part of that is the physical shoring up of spaces, performance spaces, spaces for, you know, we're redoing all of our washrooms so that they're gender neutral and gender specific. That is shoring up the human spirit. Right. The infrastructure of that within these public spaces. So that's what I might say is tied to what is that future.
ANNETTA: And I think it's really important because it's when you when your soul finds a space and it feels like it fits, then that, you know, that's a game changer and in a great the arts and all of those kinds of things. The big question I have for you is do you have a favorite that you've programmed? Do you have a favorite show that you developed at the Harbourfront Centre?
IRIS: I have a favorite show that I programmed, and that was actually a piece that I saw in Australia actually called Second Woman. And it was a 24-hour endurance play where you watched the same scene, played out with 100 different men. It was a scene between a man and a woman. And the woman was the same. And she played against a hundred volunteer men who volunteered to come and play that role.
ANNETTA: Wow.
IRIS: And it went on for a 24-hour cycle. And I saw it at the Adelaide Festival and I was just mesmerized by the different ways that they interacted the different ways that you could interpret exactly the same words, exactly the same scene. That was, yeah, it was pretty special. So, I loved that piece. But I think I'm most proud of CoMotion. I think as a, being brave enough and taking that, I don't want to call it - a risk. I think it was making, standing by this commitment, these words that we say that we want to be accessible in the arts, that we are inclusive. And I wanted it, the action, to support those words. So, to create this festival and commit a lot of our funding and a lot of our resources to support these underrepresented artists and give opportunity. I think I'm most proud of that to date. Although I've done lots, there's lots of things that we're proud of.
ANNETTA: It’s like asking you what you know, who your favorite child is, isn't it.
IRIS: Yeah, yeah, you can ask that. Although, depending on which child in front of me, they're my favorite.
ANNETTA: Yeah, exactly. So, for you, what's the vision for the next 5 to 10 years?
IRIS: It's rebuilding. Coming out of a time where we have not been together. So how do I. I spend a lot of time at Harbourfront looking at the cultural landscape and seeing where the gaps are. So, I think our community has come to a place where we understand that we need to not be in competition but in fact support each other and build on.
IRIS: So that's what some of the future strategically is looking at. Where are the gaps? What needs to be shored up? And what, uh, I want us to be taking even more risks in the kind of work that we do and that what we present. And I want to bring some joy like it's been a hard, life is hard, life is hard. And I think what we can do is really give people, back to this the shoring up of the human spirit. I think that's what our responsibility is.
ANNETTA: Yeah. Yeah, that is wonderful. And I look forward very much to seeing what that turns into from a programming perspective. IRIS: , this has been an extraordinary conversation and thank you so much for sharing your amazing knowledge with over 30 years experience in the arts and cultural sector, what is your pearl of wisdom and your takeaway for emerging arts leaders and arts managers?
IRIS: Hmm. I would say be brave. Listen. Like, really be present and listen to your colleagues, to the community, to the people that you want to engage with. I think it's important to be able to answer why. Like in every choice that you make, to be a good leader, you need to be able to stand and be confident in the why. Why have you chosen this work? Why have you chosen this path? So that's an important piece. And I think the biggest piece that I have learned is to be comfortable making a decision. Because that's what a leader does. A leader both listens, but then also says, makes a choice and goes down a path. And I think to be a really great leader, you have to get comfortable making a decision.
ANNETTA: Yeah, that is wonderful. Thank you so much. As we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to add to this conversation?
IRIS: The only thing I want to say is that it's a great gift to work in the cultural sector. It, you know, culture is critical to the health and well-being of our society. And the fact that I get to and that all of us in the arts get to contribute to that is an incredible gift.
ANNETTA: So thank you so much. And I heartily agree with you. I think it's the air that we breathe. So, IRIS: , thank you so much for this time. I really, really appreciate it.
IRIS: Thank you for taking the time. It's been lovely.
OUTRO
This show was created by executive producer and host Annetta Latham, Technical Producer Paul Johnston and research assistants Terri Le Gear, Micah Carter and Ian Small.
Theme music by Emily Darfur and cover art by Constanza Pacher. Special thanks to MacEwan University for their support and to our guests. Arts Conversations is a production of Artful Creative, all rights reserved.
REFERENCE
Latham, A. (Executive Producer and Host). (2022, November 1) [Season 3: Episode 03]. IRIS: Nemani. Podcast retrieved from: www.artfulconversations.com