Connecting you with todays arts leaders.

Ep. 8: Kelly Jerrott

Artful Conversations 2020 Kelly Jerrott Interview

Welcome to Artful Conversations - a podcast about arts and cultural management. Hosts Annetta Latham and Katrina Ingram, interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture. We share their stories, their insights and observations. This podcast season has been brought to you with the support of MacEwan University and The Rozsa Foundation.

Welcome to Artful Conversations. I’m your host Annetta Latham. I am thrilled to have Kelly Jerrott with us here today. Kelly Jerrott has more than 25 years of experience as a leader in the arts and cultural sector in Canada. She holds a Master of Arts in Leadership from Royal Roads University, in Victoria, British Columbia, as well as a Bachelor of Arts in Recreation and Physical Education from Acadia University in Wolfville, Nova Scotia.

 Up until her recent move, she was the Director of Community Services with the City of St. Albert, in Alberta. Working with a dynamic team in St. Albert, Kelly oversaw the management and operations of the City’s cultural facilities including the Arden Theatre, visual arts studios, museum, gallery and heritage properties.She and her team also oversaw the management of the City’s Public Art Collection, and the direct delivery of a wide variety of festivals, events and programs to support the community. 

Welcome Kelly!

KELLY: Hi, great to be here.

ANNETTA:  It's lovely, lovely to have you join us today. You have an extraordinary breadth of knowledge and it's just absolutely phenomenal. Tell us a little bit about your journey as the director of cultural services for over eight years. And what was that like? 

KELLY: Well, you know, when I took on the position in St. Albert, I mean, I was certainly stepping into big shoes and St Albert has been in a strong position in terms of culture and art and has really laid some really good groundwork and to build on. And I was very fortunate to go into that position. And it was one that involved a great deal of direct service delivery with the job. So I’m fortunate to have just a fabulous team there to to work with and so jumped into that and was involved in a wide variety of different activities. And in St. Albert, the municipality operates the Arden Theatre and we run the festivals, the International Children's Festival, the Amplify Youth Festival, and also has a really rich cultural history in terms of just the history and the community and the museum and the heritage sites and art gallery and fortunate to be involved in a wide variety of capital projects there, whether it was maintaining the theater itself and involved in the lifecycle planning and the maintenance there. And a lot of the restoration work that we did with some of the municipal heritage properties in that community. So it was a really fairly broad scope of work. And certainly St. Albert has a rich public art collection as well, and was one of the early municipalities to collect art. And so it was very rewarding and just so exciting to be involved and work with such a great team. 

ANNETTA: And now you've moved on to new adventures. When you look over those back over the years, what was your favorite thing? It's kind of like asking you who's your favorite child, isn't it? Have you got a favorite? 

KELLY: Well, you know what? Because I started in the sector and I did a lot of those hands-on jobs and I worked in the venues and I manage venues. I did bookings and I did events and that type of thing. So I really had a good appreciation for what my team was involved with. And every now and then as you move on in your career, you become more involved in the policy work and helping to set the stage for others and give them the tools they need to do the things they do. And then you've got to get out of there way. You let them, let them go. But occasionally I'd get to get my hands in there and I'd be able to roll up my sleeves and be involved. And I think the project that I think resonates the most for me and that will, I'll hold with me and will stay with me for a long time is the Healing Garden project. And it was Kâkesimokamik, the Healing Garden. And it was one that we worked on with the community and we worked with an Elder and knowledge keepers and residential school survivors and community representatives to build this place of healing in the community. And I learned so much and it was a really hard journey at times and challenging and didn't always go smoothly. But I learned so much and we worked together on it. And it's one that was, it addressed some of the items in the Calls to Action in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's Calls to Action. And it provided that place for healing. And it really was a symbol of that reconciliation journey in the community. And it's one of those that I'm just so honored to have been able to be part of and work with that group and be part of that circle to make that happen. And that's something that's going to just be there for forever. And that's one that I've held close, but there's so many projects that I've been involved with and so many that I helped facilitate and then to watch my team and individual members of the team succeed and excel and those things come to fruition was just so rewarding. 

ANNETTA: That’s amazing, absolutely amazing. And it sounds like it was an incredible project. So one of the other amazing things that you have done in your career is you've been the president of the Creative Cities Network of Canada. And, you are now, currently a board member, no longer the role of president. Tell us a little bit about that role. How did you get it? How do you get the gig? But also what was the connection between that and your leadership job at council? And I mean, two really significant roles. 

KELLY: Well, the Creative City Network is really a network and it connects cultural workers across the country. So quite often when you start in a position, you might not know where to go for information or you've been asked by your council or municipality or your boss said, hey, you know, I need information on this and I don't even know where to start with that. But you don't want to ask. And so you reach out. You have this little lifeline to colleagues right across the country and the creative city network. It provides those connections. And it lets people know, you could be working in a municipality in Nova Scotia or a municipality on the West Coast or in Ontario somewhere or in St. Albert and you can reach out and know that you're not alone, you're not the only one dealing with these things, and you can reach out and you can get examples and you can talk to somebody who's been through that and they can give you the do this, but don't do this. This is what I did. And don't do that. 

And everybody has been just so free to share information and share their experiences and their learnings. And that was the real key. And that's why so many people get involved with that network. And it's one of the reasons that the network has excelled and grown over the years. 

So after I had been in the position, I joined as a member and the municipality was a member and then decided that I want it to be involved a little bit more and share some of my learnings and experiences that I could bring to the table. The Creative City Network offers a creative city summit every year, and it's a professional development opportunity. And it's one of the few that are Canadian that we could go to - that's Canadian based. And so I've done a lot of conferences and professional development and training. So offered that experience, as well as the experience from the not for profit sector and then just kind of that industry experience to the board. So I got in as a board member and kind of worked my way through, then moved to vice president and then president. And it's kind of two years and each in each of those roles. And then and right now I'm serving as a past president. So kind of helping with that transition and continuity within the organization. And I mean, it's one of those organizations that it connects. And we forget we those in Canada, we tend to downplay sometimes our experience and the expertise and and Creative Cities has really had that broader reach internationally.

I was so fortunate to even talk about that with some international colleagues. In 2016, I traveled to South Korea to the UNESCO Creative City Forum in Jeonju and talked about the Creative City Network and how we connect right across Canada, because it's a very big country. We're very spread out. And many of the other international and other nations, they're just like, how do you do that? How do you maintain that connection? And so we've shared our learnings, and some of those other Creative Cities and countries are learning and following that model. So it was a real eye opener in terms of just how they view us and how we can even broaden those connections. 

ANNETTA: Yeah, well, that's wonderful.  To our listeners, I highly recommend that you go and have a look at the Creative City Network of Canada's website. There's some fantastic resources on that website. It's just absolutely wonderful. And like you said, it's kind of nice to know you've got colleagues out there who might not be sitting in the cubicle next to you, but who are kind of doing the journey with you and walking through some of the challenges that you might have as well. So, you know, sometimes a shared knowledge is the best knowledge, really. So thank you for that, that’s amazing. And I want to talk a little bit about your role in local government and kind of your insights that you've got, having had such an extraordinary role, and in relation to definitely the role that local government plays in developing culture in a community. And what do you feel is your take on what your purpose was in the job that you had and your team? And what role did they play in trying to develop the cultural dialog and cultural sector within the community? And we can talk specifically about St Albert or you can spread it out, if you like. 

KELLY: OK, well, I think in local government, and it changes, it's a little different in each community. And I don't know that there's any two municipalities that operate exactly the same way. And there are a variety of different models in terms of whether it's service delivery and how they serve the community, because you could be working in an urban area or a very rural setting. And there are a variety of different models, so you could have somebody who's working in a one-person office and they do everything. So you're doing the hands-on stuff and you're doing a wide variety of all of those different different programs. 

Or you could be in an organization that has a large team and you're doing a lot of direct service delivery and St Albert is a good example where we did a lot of direct service delivery. And it's a different model. And partly because, you know, the city hall in St. Albert Place, it actually was built, it was a place for the people. It's a cultural place, it houses a whole series of visual art studios. It houses the museum and it houses the theater and the library. And it's a gathering place and it's a very rich cultural center. And so it makes sense that this city provides those direct services and operates those facilities and provides that service to the community. 

There are others where the municipality may work in partnership with a not-for-profit or they have an arts council. So Edmonton has the Arts Council and they often provide some of that direct delivery to the community. So it varies. So in terms of the role  that I played in local government and what my team would have done, we worked with community groups, so could be working with your community organizations and arts and cultural organizations to empower them and and help them with their board development and governance and how they might access additional funding, whether the city is providing funding to those organizations or providing that connection and sharing resources to provincial or federal funding to help them along. And sometimes it's just talking things through, providing that sounding board and giving them some suggestions. 

The other thing that the role that we play is sometimes it's setting the stage. And I'll use the arts analogy in terms of you know you set the stage, you get all the props, get the lighting set, and you've got everything cued up. And so my role, for example, in St Albert was to make sure that my team had what they needed to do their job. So that shifted over the years. And so it becomes more of that policy and working with council and the community to have policies in place and by-laws in place and making sure that we have the tools and the resources necessary to do what we need to do and also engaging with the community. And we don't want to be doing, working on programs and services that aren't in line with what the community wants or the community values, and that ties to our municipal planning and what the community vision is. And what does the community want to see going forward? And then how can we work together with them to make that happen? But having those policies in place provides that framework. And it gives you that longevity in terms of your program. So you can tie the budget and your planning and your action plans year to year and that longer term planning. And you've got that map and you're following that through. 

ANNETTA:  That's a really good launch point for us to talk about sustainable community and how the value and importance of culture kind of sits inside that narrative, because sustainability is really the new focus on a whole different level than it's ever been before. And so from your perspective and the work that you were doing in relation to the value and importance of culture for the overall community, how did you feel that pillar of sustainability threaded through the work that your team and yourself were doing? 

KELLY: You know, it's something that I think it grew as I got into the role and created that greater understanding.  When I first started, I was dealing with the hands on stuff. And you get that kind of sorted out and you're comfortable with where your team are and working together. And then you look at kind of what are the tools that are necessary, what are the elements that are necessary to ensure that the community has that rich cultural element embedded and the key pillars of sustainability, as you know, the environmental, economic and the social and the cultural, they all form that fabric and they, we need all of those elements and they all interconnect and we need all of those for our communities to be healthy. And these are widely recognized worldwide. And these are ones that many communities have embedded in their community vision and their community plans, and developing those long range plans. And one of the things that I have learned over the years is we can't just focus on the arts, or on the cultural element. I mean, many do, and sometimes you have to kind of get your own shop in order first and then you reach out a little bit. 
But it's even more important now with dealing with the impact of the pandemic and what many, all municipalities are dealing with right now. And how do we go forward and we're having to revisit how we do things and the processes and the processes and systems that we had in place, we're having to kind of turn totally around and upside down and we're working in that, we're in the middle of change. And it's just that ongoing change. So we have to learn to be adaptive. But how can we work together with colleagues in various departments within the organization and partner with community organizations and and other governments and funding agencies and work with the community.  You look at in the middle and at various stages, what do you reach for? Like what are those needs that you have and what it varies from day to day? I mean, there are days where we're all having a rough day and it's like, what do you do to get your head back in the game? 

It might be listening, putting on your headphones and listening to some music or watching a film or going to, watching the theater. We've watched a lot of stuff online. But the arts are one of the things and the cultural elements are one of the key things that we've reached to you look at the storytelling and that we've experienced and exchanged and the social connections of getting together. I mean, we've done lots of, we've all learned lots of technology through this whole thing, too. But we found new ways to connect and have the social connections. But it's all of those pieces that need to come together to make a community rich. And we need to figure out what that looks like going forward and how do we continue to adapt. 

ANNETTA: Yeah, I love the four principles that you mentioned, environment, economy, social and culture, as sustainability principles, because most of us, when sustainability comes up most of the conversations around environment and how to keep the green green and the blue blue and keep the rubbish away from both of them. So I think it's really important to talk about, as you mentioned, sustainability and culture and the storytelling and as municipalities develop cultural plans to sustain that and make sure that those storytelling and the knowledge keeping and all of it is not lost in the development of a plan. And I think those four fundamental statements that you made about the environment, economy, social and culture really underpin the way we need to be moving forward. 

And I think it also helps us shape that the concept that sustainability is about stewardship and it's about stewardship as we move forward. And whatever it is and culture, it's we are stewards of it, we're not owners of it. And it's our jobs to kind of be good stewards. And the next step where we've got our hands on it really in some way. 

So when you think about sustainability and talking about culture and the development of culture, I’m aware you've been involved in writing, you're quite instrumental in developing St Albert’s Cultural Master Plan. Can you tell us a little bit about that process? It sounds a little scary when you say a master plan. You kind of go, a junior plan and then a master plan, it kind of sounds a bit more user-friendly. But tell us about the process of creating, developing the plan, the steps that you took. It is yourself and with your team. And really, what was the purpose of creating a master plan for a municipality? 

KELLY: Well, I think having that master plan and the cultural master plan and that St Albert’s was finished in 2012, so it's getting a little it's a little older right now. And many of our master plans are written to be that 10 - 15 year time frame. And it creates that long term vision. It's really your long term plan for that area. And when we did the St. Albert Cultural Master Plan, we did the community consultation. We involved community groups,  there was a stakeholder advisory committee and a community advisory committee in terms of the culture group. And we reached out to community organizations. And of course, did you know, we engaged a consultant to work with us on that.  And so they helped with that framework in helping to move that forward. But really, as a municipality and the team within the municipality, there's still you don't just hand it off to the consultant. It needs to be specific to that community and it needs to resonate with the community. So it's so important to reach out to the community representatives and get that broader sense from the community.

They may, just as an example in terms of what, you know, what's going on in the community, how are people participating in arts and culture? And sometimes they may not even realize that they're participating in arts or culture. And if they are attending a concert or a show and they're going to see their favorite band play at the Arden or somewhere else in the community or one of the festivals or they might be watching a film and that's engaging in the arts. So sometimes its defining what that is to make sure that we were getting a good representation of what people were doing. It also involved  mapping what resources were in the community and what we're thinking. And we needed  to work on and and working our way through that and where the needs were in the community. So we worked through that with the consultants and the community and did a number of focus groups and interviews with Council representatives, of course, and a lot of the organizations and the community organizations and arts organizations. And when we did the cultural master plan, we actually were working on the recreation master plan at the same time. So we actually shared some resources, so when we did some of the surveys for the technical data and that detailed data where we did the phone surveys and that type of thing with the community, we were able to share those expenses. So it created some efficiencies. So in that way, it worked quite well. So that was kind of how that process worked, and I am condensing it, and what we got out of that, and they vary too, because it really depends on the community. So we came out with six priorities to respond to the cultural needs of the community, and it was to celebrate the cultural assets, and increase and deepen cultural participation, cultural tourism, establish sustainable funding, ensure  infrastructural strength, and optimize cultural services delivery. And they each had recommendations and potential strategies and how you might measure success and what that did, ours was kind of that higher level. And it wasn't of the checklist of this is what you need to do, and these are the steps. 

It was broad enough that it gave us some flexibility in terms of how we implemented that and how that looked going forward. We were able to use those as the guidelines. So we had those priority areas and recommendations within those and we were able to measure that. So we started doing a report on culture and kind of providing some stats. And this is what we're doing and this is what we were able to get through in this particular area and highlight some of those measurements, as we went forward and how we were addressing those community needs. So it provided that annual report, it let people know what was happening and what services were happening in the community. And it worked quite well for us. Now, if there has been some shifting in trends in terms of how, and what  those plans look like going forward. 

One of the things that's been happening, most, many communities are updating their municipal development plan, and that's something that has a longer term vision, what does that community vision look like on a very, very long term? And those are the things that are provided this is what we're going to do. This is what's important to the community. And it provides that basis. And so some of our communities now are really shifting what, it may not be called a master plan. It might be called something else, but it's a long term plan of how we're going to serve the community. But there's also that element of the ‘we can't work in isolation in the cultural sector’ we need to be working with our colleagues in other areas. And so as an example, one of the things that we started with some of my colleagues on the leadership team was we started having more informal conversations and we might get together for coffee with the director of planning and engineering and recreation. And we would shift that around and have those conversations with folks in public works and finance. So they understood and I understood, and we understood, what our colleagues were dealing with in other areas. And there were some occasions where we would say, hey, well, we're doing this too we both need to expend resources in this area. Let's share and get together and use those resources together so that interconnectivity is really important. And you tie that back to the pillars of sustainability and you have a look at it. It's that interconnectivity and it really reinforces that. 

So you look at your long-term planning with your development plan and what that long term vision is. And then you think back to, OK, well, what, how does that relate to what I'm going to do? And what if you can tie what you're doing and you connect it with colleagues throughout your organization, then they're actually supporting you as well. And I think working together and there may be days where you might be helping out other colleagues to move forward stuff that is really key for them. But it does impact you. And it creates a greater understanding and appreciation for the value of culture and what we do and the value of the economy and the impact culture has in the economy and the environment. I mean, and sometimes you get questioned. What does the environment have to do with culture? Like how does, I can give you just a visual example. In St. Albert, the outfalls into the river and we're quite often that's just a chain link fence and that type of thing. Well we worked with our environment team and actually embedded an artist with that team and created a really unique design to create a really beautiful structure there that actually provides an educational opportunity, it's a safety thing as well. And we've created something really nice so you can walk by, people stop and have a look at it and ask what it is. And it provides that connection. But you know, there are all kinds of examples of how that works together and how they all connect. But I think that's one of the things that we need to look at going forward. And how can we, it's embedding that culture in the policies throughout the organization and how do we work together. And it's part of that, we need to look at how we can do things differently going forward. We have the luxury. I mean, every municipality right across the country is looking at their budgets and their challenges. And how can we do this differently, is there a different way we can do it. And sometimes it means letting go of some stuff. But there's also real opportunity, because there could be some really fantastic things that emerge out of this as we go forward. 

ANNETTA: Yeah, and your words really resonated with me in what you're saying is a master plan in some ways gives you some freedom to actually engage in a dialog that wasn't there before. And there’s always power in coffee. I always say to the students, take someone for a coffee, take them for a coffee it would be amazing what you can do. And I, like you, have worked at a senior level in council. And we had a situation where we had an indoor swimming pool and had to replace the tiles. And because same thing because we had a policy, a cultural policy in place, we spoke to the engineering department and said, have a this, does this, and suddenly you've got a set of white tiles on a swimming pool building or you've got this amazing piece of artwork done by an artist who still was able to meet with all the requirements of the building specs and everything. And you're right, when culture is embedded right across a plan and right across the cities development concept, then it enriches the city for everybody. And everybody has the opportunity to engage in those kinds of things. Tell me, if you can remember when you were developing the plan and you said you had a consultant and you did all of those kinds of touch points with the community, was there anything that came out of that kind of community mapping exercise that surprised you at all? 

KELLY:  I think one of the things that, and I referenced it a little bit, was when we were doing that inventory of, you know, what were people participating in and how many people participated in cultural activities. It was one of these little things, because those of us who work in the arts and, you know, identify ourselves as people who go to art types of things. And we just assume that everybody else understands that, or sees the world in that particular way. And it was the folks, the fact that not everybody, you know,  has that same definition of what the arts are and what culture is. And it was the need that we had to find a different way of explaining it and showing people that it wasn't just what was in this little box. And participating in the arts wasn't just going to the opera or the symphony or the theater and what may have been at one point defined as the arts and going to the gallery and making the arts much more accessible. And I know our symphonies across the country and operas and the galleries are doing tremendous work in terms of increasing their accessibility and how we define art and how they reach the public as well. And so we had to do that as a community. And that was one of the things that it's something really simple. But if we increase the awareness of an understanding of what the arts are and what culture is, that really provides that connection for people. And if the community has that connection with what culture is and what the definition of culture is, it makes such a big difference. It's kind of like the culture and talking about that tangible and intangible and kind of what's  the stuff that you can physically see and touch. And then there's the intangible stuff and those like the stories and the cultural stories and the history of a community that really makes that community rich. And quite often we build on those stories and I mean you look at some of the designs coming out and the new design for the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia. It is based on indigenous culture and it's based on some of the story. And it connects, it provides that connection. And there's symbolism built into the design. And you can look at many of those landmark institutions around the world, and it's the ones that really stand out have that symbolism and there's stories attached and there's elements of the community culture that are built into those architectural designs. And I mean, when you go on holidays and you say, well, where are you going and what are you doing? And quite often, you know, you list the cultural activities that we're going to see there, going to the museum or they're going, they've gone to this performance or a festival and that type of thing. It really is important. 

ANNETTA: One of the things that I'm really picking up on what you're saying is, if you have the privilege of working in the cultural sector and local government, is engaging with the community, because they can advise you and for free. But they can give you some direction in your work.  From your role as having been in local government, what advice would you give someone who's thinking about entering local government in the cultural sector? 

KELLY: Wow. There's a lot ...if I knew then what I know now. So here goes. I think you mentioned the coffee and connecting with folks for coffee or having those conversations and reaching out. And those of us who work in the sector are all too happy to share some of our experiences and learnings. And, you know, well, we sure don't want the stuff that you did and didn't work well and blew up in your face. And you don't want anybody else to go through that. So we're very free with those learnings and sharing the learnings so that somebody else doesn't have to go through that. So somebody new starting in the sector, I think, talking to people, volunteering, getting involved, taking courses, getting out to industry organizations. 

I mentioned the Creative City Summit and Creative Cities, you know, joining some of those industry organizations. So the music organizations or the theater organizations and service organizations right across the country getting involved and volunteering. And then you develop that network. If you volunteered with one of the music awards happening regionally and you've met people who’ve been on that organizing committee, you don't know where that relationship is going to go or the connections that they might have. And you're going to learn stuff along the way. And I think, you know, even how we define what those careers are in local government, there's a wide variety. And I mentioned the different models that different municipalities have in terms of how they deliver those services. And it varies. So, I mean, just because maybe you're a numbers person and that's your thing and you love all those spreadsheets, but that doesn't mean that you may not work in the arts. I mean, we need people who get that. And if you understand the industry and you have that passion for the arts and culture, that's something that is important. And we need to be able to do that and do that well as we go forward. So I think participating in networking sessions and getting out to events and talking to people and just if there's a job that you're interested in, you know, reaching out and saying, hey, can you tell me a little bit about this. Can I get together with you for a bit and tell me what’s involved and folks are more than happy to share that experience. 

ANNETTA: Yeah. Well, thank you. So we've had a wonderful, wonderful and very enriched conversation, and I really thank you for that. But for yourself and your new adventure, where do you see things going in the future for yourself? 

KELLY: Well, I had a great run in St Albert and worked with the fabulous team and the community are so supportive and but St. Atbert  was my temporary home. But I'm back in Nova Scotia now, and I grew up here in Nova Scotia and really thrilled to be back after over 20 years working in Alberta and looking forward to having, finding a new experiment or something to try something new and looking forward to engaging with the community here with organizations and sharing my knowledge and experience, whether it's with post-secondary institutions here, or MacEwan or going forward. And and I'm still involved with the Creative City Network and are volunteering my time there and just looking for, I want to get back in touch and do a little bit more of the hands-on and the stuff that gives me energy and maybe do a little creating myself going forward, but certainly building on the experiences and the relationships that I've built over the years and looking forward to trying some new things and new ways.

ANNETTA: Absolutely wonderful. And you know I'll look forward to seeing what you create for us all. And if we need and if we need someone to help us with, a master plan will be coming your way. OK, thank you so much for our conversation. It's been a delight chatting with you and sharing your phenomenal experience with us. I really appreciate it. And thank you. It's been absolutely wonderful. 

KELLY: Thanks so much, Annetta. 

Analysis

ANNETTA: Katrina, this interview with Kelly was absolutely amazing and what an extraordinary skill set and what an amazing career she has had.  I think one of the things that really, really resonated for me throughout everything she talked about was the strength of network and understanding your network and being an active member of your network, not just kind of signing up and watching everything happen around you, but being active, and at one point she talked about the inter departmental meetings that they had, at St Albert and how they were informal. They were just informal coffee chats. But how so much has been achieved in those chats? I just felt that was really fascinating. 

KATRINA: Yeah, I was listening to this and thinking we're so fortunate to have Kelly as part of our network and our community at MacEwan. And I really got a sense of Kelly as a leader, and she used this really great analogy of setting the stage for her team. So kind of making sure that the team had everything that they needed to do their job. Everyone from the front line service delivery folks to the cultural services, all of the different groups that reported into her as she managed that cultural services role. And I just really got the sense of Kelly herself as a leader. 

ANNETTA: Oh, yeah, very, very much so. And, you know, I've had students on placement with her. And like you've said, we're so privileged to have her as part of our teaching team. And, you know, it's just amazing to think what the team out at St Albert were able to achieve under her leadership. And I think that's a real reflection of her as a leader. 

KATRINA: Absolutely. I also picked up on this point about the four principles, environment, economy, social and culture, and she talked about all of this, needing to work together very holistically for sustainability. And I thought that was a really important point to unpack and how all of these elements kind of work together in terms of culture, in terms of storytelling and in terms of true sustainable community. 

This show was created by Executive Producer and Host Annetta Latham; Co-host Katrina Ingram. Technical Producer Paul Johnston. Research Assistants involved were Caitlin McKinnon and MacEwan bachelor of music students. 

Theme Music by Emily Darfur and cover art by Constanza Pacher. Special thanks to the Rose Foundation for their support and to our guests. Artful Conversations is a production of MacEwan University and Assistant Professor Annetta Latham, all rights reserved.

Latham, A. (Executive Producer and Host). Regan-Ingram, K (Host). (2020, November 20) [Season 2: Episode 2]. Kelly Jerrott. Podcast retrieved from: https://www.artfulconversations.com/season-2-1/2021/2/6/ep-8-kelly-jerrott


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