INTRO
LATHAM
Welcome to Artful Conversations, a podcast about arts and cultural management. I’m Annetta Latham.
INGRAM
And I'm Katrina Ingram. We interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture, sharing their stories, insights, and observations.
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INGRAM
Welcome to Artful Conversations, I'm your host Katrina Ingram. Today my guest is Johann Zietsman, president and CEO of Arts Commons in Calgary. Johann was born in South Africa. After serving in the military, he graduated as an architect, then moved to New York where he completed a master's degree in music. Returning to South Africa in 1982, Johann started a 20-year career in many executive arts management positions. During this time, he was actively involved in the political transformation of his homeland through pioneering work in the arts, resulting in recognition from Nelson Mandela's government. Johann served as the executive director of the International Society for the Performing Arts in New York before becoming director of the Mesa Department of Arts and Culture and executive director for the Mesa Arts Center in Arizona. He moved to Calgary in 2009 to become the president and CEO of Arts Commons. Welcome Johann.
ZIETSMAN
Thank you.
INGRAM
Johan, you have a fascinating international career in the arts. I'm really interested to know why the arts in Calgary. What drew you to lead this particular organization in this city?
ZIETSMAN
There's so much in Calgary that draws people here. And in my case it quite simply has to be that infectious can-do attitude. And I know it's a cliché, but it really is a reality for me and the people.
When the board approached me while I was in Mesa, Arizona to come here, honestly I said no the first time. I said “no, I'm kind of enjoying what I'm doing, and I want to keep doing that for a while longer.” They said, “well why don't you just visit the city and have a look around?” and that changed my mind, and also my wife’s.
We came and met so many wonderful, engaging, forward-moving people, and there was an energy, an authenticity, and a friendliness that we just immediately felt at home here. I guess it also definitely played into our long-term desire at some point to be Canadian citizens, which we now are.
INGRAM
The people are warm, the climate maybe a little cold, but the people are warm.
ZIETSMAN
We've gotten used to the climate. I loved Mesa, but I prefer this winter to that summer.
INGRAM
Yeah, I bet. Now tell us a bit more about Arts Commons. What's your mission as an organization and how do you go about advancing your goals?
ZIETSMAN
Our mission is very simple, it's to bring the arts to life. What we mean by that, beyond the obvious meaning, is break down the barriers that over time have come to exist between community, and folks on the streets’ lives, and the arts. To a certain degree, the arts in the past have been building those barriers by sort of thriving on the sense of exclusivity. I have learned that that's a barrier that we must break down and connect with life, everyday life.
I do not believe the arts are separate from life, that it's above life, that it's an option. We all participate in the arts in many ways, every single day of our lives, and we are also creative beings whether we consider ourselves such or not. Most of us make creative decisions every single day. So for me and for us at Arts Commons, it's about breaking down the distance between the arts and everyday life, and understanding that life is the arts, and arts is life, and we go about that by just talking a lot about that. By doing our programs in a way that doesn't feel exclusive. We really break down the social barriers that may have existed between certain arts experiences, or that people might associate with that, and open our doors to all kinds of communities, and members, and all kinds of diversities in ways that might not be traditionally the norm. That's how we, on a day-to-day basis, break down those barriers and make sure that folks feel that their lives and the arts are connected naturally and organically every day.
INGRAM
That's a really interesting perspective, and I definitely want to dig into that, but I want to talk a bit about where you're situated. I think you're situated in a great place to break down those barriers and the building that houses Arts Commons itself has a long history that dates back to the early 1900s. Can you briefly touch on how the building itself, which occupies the entire city block in downtown Calgary on prime real estate, came to be a place that focused on the arts and is now one of the largest arts incubators in Canada?
ZIETSMAN
I think you're absolutely right, that where we are is part of the journey and part of something that sparks our ability to to really make it part of life. We are in the heart of downtown. We have thousands upon thousands of people just walking by the building, but also through the building. We have a Plus 15 corridor right through the building, in one side out the other side. Uniquely compared to just about any other art center I've been to in the rest of the world, we have folks who walk into and through this building who don't have a ticket, who are not here to come and see a show, but for whom this is just a part of their city and their journey every day. That is truly spectacular. This came to be in the late-70s, early-80s. There were a number of communities that wanted to build a space to house significant arts organizations. At that time, the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra and Theatre Calgary needed a home, and decided that they could build one together. Over time the Alberta Theatre Projects became part of that. Three theatres were built in the early-80s, and we opened in ‘85 with three theatres that housed those three resident companies.
Ironically - or sadly - one of the three founding ladies that were part of driving this project, Vera Swanson, passed away last week three days before her 102nd birthday. She, and Martha Cohn who also passed away a few years ago, and Sandra LeBlanc were really the three driving community forces to get this space built to where it is today. Their vision outlasted what they could have dreamed, it is now a place that is so busy - we do about 8 or 900 events a year, 600 000 people pass through our doors every year. We have an economic impact annually of more than $87 million every single year. It's a really busy and economically diverse place. So, a great vision of really great community leaders in a city that was receptive for that, and their dream lives on and just grows every day.
INGRAM
It's interesting that three remarkable women were behind making Arts Commons what it is today, and the work that you've outlined just seems so vast in scope. Many arts organizations tend to specialize in one particular area, how do you manage so much within one organization?
ZIETSMAN
I think it's part of what we call the residency model. Obviously, we don't manage the orchestra. We don't manage Theatre Calgary. We have six resident companies that live and make their work within our space, so including in the six with the Orchestra, Theatre Calgary, Alberta Theatre Projects, it's also One Yellow Rabbit, the Calgary International Children's Festival, Downstage, and then of course our own Arts Commons Presents work.
We have a number of teams that firstly curate the content, then my team (the Arts Commons team) are also wearing the hat of landlord. We have to make sure that this 560 000 square foot building is always in pristine condition, is clean, is functioning, is technologically as state-of-the-art as possible, that's our job as landlord. We also, as I said, convene a lot of people together into this building that don't necessarily come to support the work of any one of those arts organizations, that might come in here just to celebrate a community event. Maybe to celebrate Chinese New Year, or Day of the Dead. We really reach out to the community to make sure they feel this is also a gathering space for community, and celebrations, and events. All of those things together keep us very busy, and I think how we do it is just through incredible partners, beautiful people that work for us and with us. We have a lot of incredibly talented staff, who've been here for a long time. Then of course support from public institutions like the City, the government, and the public itself, corporations in Calgary… So many entities go into supporting this incredible organization, that in the end it's not that hard to manage if you have all that support.
INGRAM
It sounds like a great collaborative process, and you mentioned some of the many programs that you offer at Arts Commons. I know one that I was reading about, Happenings, which is a free event that's planned quarterly and started in 2015. What's really unique about this program is its purpose to serve participating artists and serve the public interest. I’m wondering what spurred the idea to host Happenings, and how do you continue to build on the success of this event?
ZIETSMAN
As I said earlier, we really work on reaching all of the communities in Calgary, not just some. So the diversification of our programming, and the lowering of the access threshold is just part of making this place more open for more people. When we rebranded from our previous name, Center for the Performing Arts, to Arts Commons, one of the pieces we wanted to signal was that it really is open for everybody, and all art forms are celebrated as well. Happenings became this space where with social media, we get hundreds of folks showing up, and they have three or four hours of great fun in very different spaces. Our recent Happening happened in our parkade in the basement. We removed all the cars, and we had 20-30 artists doing incredibly interesting things down there, and hundreds of people just milling around all the way through the building, enjoying this experience for free. But it was a cultural gathering. Happenings has become from a branding exercise to a thing we do on a regular basis, and Happenings 12 is coming up. It's just become a place where we are able to gather folks who might not buy a ticket to a formal show. It's really trying to cater for what I call “cultural omnivores,” folks who are not necessarily interested only in one art form but are interested in tasting and trying out all kinds of other art forms. Happenings offers them that casual shopping around opportunity between a whole lot of different arts experiences in one building.
INGRAM
I love that you're hosting a cultural event in a parkade, because I'm pretty sure that's not done very regularly, maybe never done before. I definitely want to talk about the rebranding as well. But before we get onto that topic, I have to ask you: with an organization the size of yours, what does the staffing situation look like to coordinate all these different programs and to run the facility?
ZIETSMAN
As I said earlier, we have unbelievable staff. I'm surrounded by very smart, very passionate folks who really care deeply about their community, and about this organization, and the relationship between the two. We have a full-time staff of 60 and part-timers of about 200 folks who would come in and out depending on the events we have. And then of course every resident company, the Orchestra, Theatre Calgary, and so on have their own staff. At any one time there would be 200-300 full-time people in the building working here every day, and then another few hundred when we have specific events and we draw on our part-time team. All of us have really wonderful volunteers who offer time which is a very valuable thing for us to help do even more and do better. For instance, we have a concierge service where… we are a complicated, confusing building. People come in the front door and there's a concierge with a friendly face that can show you where to go. That's a volunteer. So you get the job done with marshaling all kinds of resources, not just full-time staff. We're very fortunate to have a lot of part-time and volunteer folks who work with us.
INGRAM
I love that mix of staff and volunteers in order to get the job done. Now, you mentioned the rebranding. In 2014, Arts Commons began a transformation and rebranded its identity from its prior name, the Epcor Centre for the Performing Arts. Why was this change made and how does it influence the perception of the organization in the Calgary community?
ZIETSMAN
Well what sparked this rebranding was just simply that the Epccor naming sponsorship deal expired. So we needed to replace their name with another name or just take it off. At that time, we \ didn't particularly want to revert to be called the Calgary Centre for the Performing Arts. And at that time, there was no other naming sponsor that was available. We thought we had changed so much from the original Calgary Centre for Performing Arts, in terms of what we do and how we do it. Our relationship with the community changed, in that it is beyond just being a Centre, we operate in all kinds of places in the city.
Secondly, we're not just the performing arts anymore. We include sound art, media art, visual art, and movement, and so on in the same building. We didn't want to only be called a performing arts centre anymore. All those reasons together gave us a great opportunity to say, “so how would we describe who we've become, and who do we want to be in future, and how does that name reflect our relationship with our community?” So very simply, we decided the word Arts had to be in there, because in the end we are about the arts, and the wonderful role that the arts can and should play in everybody's life and in the community. And then Commons to indicate that sort of gathering place for everybody around the arts. Arts Commons was a very simple way to describe our mission.
INGRAM
Tell us about the actual process you went through to become Arts Commons. What was that like?
ZIETSMAN
The first part of the process was just arriving at the point that, okay, we want a different name. Then how do we arrive at that new name? We had - I can't remember now exactly the number - I think we had five brainstorm groups, or community testing groups, or groups of folks that gathered in separate rooms and in different parts of the city over a period of three months. Each group had about 15 to 20 people, and these groups are made up of a big variety of folks. Traditional arts supporters, maybe some sponsors, maybe some board members, maybe some staff, maybe some resident companies. But also folks who might never have been here, or folks who are younger than our typical profile, in these engagement meetings, and folks who represented all kinds of diversities in Calgary. Maybe some politicians in every one of those four or five different focus groups. It was a very rewarding process to take them through: “okay, tell us what you think when you think about the core centre, and tell us what you think when you think about this place today, and what you’d think about a place like this in future, and what should that name indicate?”
A whole lot of input came through that process, that we then engaged a professional organization in town to help us sift through and come up with a series of potential names that might reflect the changing relationship between a place like ours and a city like ours. They finally came up, between us and the board and the focus groups, with three potential names and we picked this one.
INGRAM
The change can be really difficult for communities. How did different stakeholders react to this change?
ZIETSMAN
Yeah, as with any change not everybody initially said “wow, I love that name!” But also I can think of two or three people that really said “I don't like that name.” Most people said “Commons, what's that about? How did you get there, what does it mean?” Every single time we did engage on that, the response was always the same. The response was “oh. I get it, that's really interesting. Of course that's what it means and that's a really nice way to think about you, and that plays into the future.”
Most people that we engaged with one-to-one responded very positively. We also did a community survey in Calgary by an external firm to test the name before we finalized it. Again, that was by far the most common response. Then over time, it's now been socialized. I think most people know what the name means, why the name is what it is, and we get almost nobody anymore that use the old name. Certainly very few people, if any, have told us that they really still do not like the name and would like another name.
It's actually broken down a lot of barriers. People don't have the same sort of formal associations they may have had with a name like Calgary Centre for the Performing Arts. It's also very interesting how other organizations, and the rest of the US, have responded to our name change and have asked us how we got there. They're engaged in a similar process, to choose a more democratic name, a more open name.
INGRAM
You talked about why you chose a more democratic name. I'm curious to know, how has rebranding impacted audience development and growth? Both in terms of new challenges and new opportunities.
ZIETSMAN
I'll just give you one statistic that answers the question at least from one perspective. Our patron-generated revenue, which includes ticket sales and donations - our relationship with the individuals in Calgary - over the last five years went from $600,000 a year to $1.2million a year. Our patron-generated revenue after our brand change has doubled. I'm not saying that's the only measure, certainly other factors play a role too. But our brand has certainly helped us to live the reality that we feel we are aiming at, which is that we are much more open, much more inclusive, that we are for everybody, and that it's not separate from the life. That we are a part of life. I think our name and our brand consistently shows that.
You may or may not know that the logos that we chose are also indicative of that. We have four logos, and we might have a number five or six going into the future. The point about our logo is that it indicates that we are a creative organization, and therefore we don't have just one image associated with us. We are creative, artistic, evolving, organic, all of those are words that help our brand to be less exclusive and more part of life. We also have attracted, because of that branding, wonderful sponsors that like the idea of access and a more democratic and inclusive approach. We have the TD Arts Access Pass, for instance, sponsored by TD Bank, that helps folks who might not be able to afford a show. They take out a TD Arts Access Pass from the library, and come to see a show. All of those little steps have flowed out of our brand.
We also support new Canadians, and new Calgarians when they arrive to come to our shows -supported by TD again - and to integrate into our community by having access to our cultural experiences. Then they become Calgarians faster, so I can put it that way. We really tried to reach out and become a part of people's lives where they live, and help them with the issues they face.
INGRAM
That's all really wonderful and remarkable. While revenue isn't always the only driver, to have it double and link back to the rebrand, that's a really significant marker and milestone. I do want to talk about art spaces, and artistic hubs, and arts incubator spaces. They seem to be a growing phenomenon in Calgary. How does Arts Commons play a role in this?
ZIETSMAN
Well you know firstly I think it's a good thing that it's a growing phenomenon. I think it’s the realization that people can get together and engage in an artistic or creative activity. It’s not just for artists, or for some people. More people can engage. We play a role, obviously, being an art space ourselves and an incubator ourselves. We also offer a number of arts residencies in our visual arts space. We have two specific spaces dedicated to having short-term arts residencies, and you would walk through the +15 and sometimes see an artist creating work in the space that people walk by. We also launched two pilot projects called Pro Amp and Common Space. Both are short-term residencies, or short-term programs helping emerging artists or emerging groups find space easily. They also are given some basic access to our expertise that we have in areas such as project planning or lighting or technical areas on stage.
We have so much expertise in this building, that we're beginning to find ways to engage with emerging artists. But also, folks who are interested in that can go online and enroll in these free programs which are now unfortunately both sold out, as it were, fully subscribed. It's a pilot project, and we will do it again. Once we see how it works, we'll learn how to do it better. We're really interested in providing that sort of art space and incubator, and hub space for folks.
We also have two arts education spaces, one is called a Hub for Inspired Learning where Campus Calgary runs their school projects. We have 22 weeks of school in those two spaces in our building. So we're finding all ways possible to have not just grownups, but young students in our building to animate our space.
INGRAM
It sounds like you're making the most of every square inch of the vast space that you have. You mentioned that you didn't really see other incubator spaces so much as competition. Do you feel that there's room for everyone?
ZIETSMAN
Oh yeah, absolutely, completely. I mean, since the Arts Commons facility was opened 33 years ago, Calgary has doubled in size. We have not doubled the number of either seats available or square footage available in these kinds of spaces in Calgary over the same period. So clearly, there's room for more. Most of the folks who came in the last 30 years are folks who came from all kinds of interesting places, and have changed the way Calgarians look and feel about themselves, and have broad ambitions and dreams with them that have to be accommodated somewhere. We all benefit from being exposed to those ambitions and dreams, so I think the more hubs, or incubating spaces, or performance spaces, or whatever gathering spaces we might imagine… the more of that, the better. We all will create a new creative and imaginative Calgary by exposing ourselves to each other's dreams and spaces like this.
INGRAM
Arts managers need to maintain their facilities to ensure long-term sustainability for their organizations. The Jack Singer Concert Hall recently underwent some renovations. How does the patron experience influence the choice for what kind of physical improvements are made to the building?
ZIETSMAN
Yeah, managing this facility is primarily a job as a landlord of course. The building works really hard. So over time, we have to do bigger and bigger projects to maintain a kind of standard. These are prime venues, and we pride ourselves on maintaining standards that should be associated with prime venues. The seat replacement in the Jackson Concert Hall was just the completion of a seating project in all the theaters, and all the spaces in Arts Comments that have now been replaced. It really does start with the patron experience, it's all about providing the patron with the best experience they can have. Its seating replacement was a visible project, but to give you another example, we're replacing our boilers this year, and we're replacing our main electric switch. Neither of which any audience member would ever see. But if any one of those two things do not work, the experience would be not just subpar, it will be terrible. We spend a lot of time and effort making sure the cosmetic elements, and the visible elements are upgraded. But also the mechanical, and electrical, and all the other technical elements behind-the-scenes, to make sure that when patrons come in they really have only the best experience possible. So, yes, the patron remains our prime driver for doing any of these things.
INGRAM
That's an excellent point. So many things that make the experience a comfortable and good experience are those behind-the-scenes things that we don't really think about until the heat goes out and we’re cold. Actually, you mentioned many of the gallery spaces that are housed within Arts Commons. Can you tell us a bit more about the galleries that call Arts Commons home?
ZIETSMAN
It's one of those other invisible collaborations that we engage with, and are very proud to engage with. We will engage with something like ten different arts organizations to curate and help us curate some of the gallery spaces and window spaces we have. For instance, the Alberta Craft Council, the Alberta Printmakers’ Society, the Marion Nicoll Gallery, the New Gallery, the Stride Gallery, the Tiny Gallery, or the University of Calgary Faculty of Art. All of these organizations, and others, work with our in-house curator to rotate the exhibitions in the 15+ galleries that we have all around this building. All these artists are given a professional treatment, they are given exposure, we help them look the best, sound the best that they can. Many of them have told us that their moment in Arts Commons was an important step, and that it helped them launch a professional career, and it exposed them to folks that they otherwise might not have had a chance to be exposed to. We really enjoy the idea that it's good for them, but we also enjoy the fact that it's really good for us to have incredible talent being exhibited all throughout the building, which animates our building in a beautiful way. It's always interesting to walk around here. There's always something new to see and just before you get tired of it, it changes.
We have other partners too with whom we partner a lot. We partner with Nuit Blanche, we partner with PaperGirl, both Artcity and City of Calgary Public Art, Studio C, Yukon Art Centre… Lots of other partners in this effort to have an all-encompassing experience for folks who walk through the building.
INGRAM
That's a great segue into my next question which is all about synergies. I'm wondering about collaborations, are there any collaborations taking place as a result of organizations being housed under the same roof?
ZIETSMAN
Well, collaborations do happen much easier if you're under the same umbrella. We collaborate a lot with our resident companies. I would say a year doesn't go by when we have done or are doing some kind of a collaboration with at least one of the six resident companies. It's much easier, much more organic to do it internally, but we also do it externally. We collaborate with any number of external organizations from time to time. Beakerhead, National Music Center, the Public Library, the Organization for Newcomers in Calgary, the Mexican Consulate… We find these partners who share one ambition, and that's to make Calgary a better place in whichever way they do it. If there's a way we can collaborate with them, either by them being in our facility, or us helping them with resources outside of the building, we love those moments. Sometimes they're one-off, sometimes they happen annually. It's organic. We figure out what's best for both partners, and if it's a mutual benefit then we keep doing it. We're always looking for new ways to collaborate, and I don't think we'll ever be done.
INGRAM
It's great. Some of our listeners will find themselves managing an arts facility at some point in their career. What advice do you have for them?
ZIETSMAN
Go for it. It's probably the most challenging type of job in the arts you can imagine, because the range of professional expertise required of an arts manager is really quite staggering. All the way from having the ability to do a budget and manage finances, and all the way to knowing how to market and get people to come to your facility and enjoy what you do. Just simply managing the wide range of artists, and technicians, and staff members, and so on. The range of expertise required from this kind of job is really quite staggering. That makes it phenomenally interesting, and never a dull moment. If you're a life learner, this is the kind of job to do, because there's always something new and something exciting to learn.
I think in the end, it's really important for folks who want to get into this business to understand that it's also a business. To understand that nobody owes you a living, and to work towards earning people's trust and earning people's support. It doesn't come automatically, and one should never take it for granted. But my goodness, if you hit the sweet spot, and you get enough support from community because they care about what you do, and they connect with your values, and your impact, and that connects with their values… there's just no better job to do than connecting with community in this way, and getting out of the way and putting the arts and community together.
INGRAM
Wonderful. Before we wrap up, I'd like to circle back to you personally. How has leading the transformation of this organization personally impacted you, and what advice do you have for future leaders about leading transformational initiatives?
ZIETSMAN
Well as you can hear, I love my job, and I really enjoy doing it. I feel incredibly privileged by being surrounded by incredible staff, and very supportive board members, and a great community, and funders. Clearly, the impact that it's having on me personally is positive. I can only say that, and be thankful and grateful that I am in this chair. I will enjoy it for as long as they'll have me.
But in terms of advice for transformative moments, I have in my career only ever started or fixed or changed organizations, and it seems to be the thing I'm attracted to. I think to be bold enough and confident enough about what it is that you want to achieve as you transform an organization or program is important, and not to be full of doubt. That doesn't mean you come in and you're a bull in a china store and break everything. But to respectfully change, and slowly change towards what you consider to be a different and better reality is a process that takes time. I think one of the biggest obstacles to that kind of change is a successful past. Folks would say, “but we used to do it this way,” or “it used to work this way,” and one has to respect and understand that that perspective is a valid perspective. Then, to offer a future that might look better, or more interesting, or more viable.
That moment is often catalyzed by a crisis. And it's sad that we sometimes have to wait until something breaks before we think it's necessary to fix it, but in our organization we often say that we've learned not to waste a good crisis. Sometimes it does take a crisis to transform, or be willing to change. That would be an opportunity to then introduce a new reality. It's important not to do these things just based on gut. Gut is really important, but it should be supported by facts. So in order to sustain any kind of a transformation, you've got to have your facts right. You've got to really look at the business side of things. All of those are things that the team that I work with have become incredibly good at. It's just great to work in this moment with this team.
INGRAM
Johann, this has been a great conversation. Is there anything else you would like to add to our conversation today, before we wrap up?
ZIETSMAN
No, I think you have covered what it takes to be here. I think one of the things that we, in addition to our mission... We've spent quite a lot of time identifying our operating values, and they are very important to us, and we live them every day. I think that's important too for anybody wanting to put their foot into this. Our values are very simple: to be open, and to do the right thing, and to be our best. There's so much in there that we live every day, and try to live every day. I would just remind myself, and anybody interested in this work that in the end, you’ve got to make sure it lines up with your values and the values of the community you serve. And that you serve at your community’s pleasure. So that's what we are about.
INGRAM
Well on behalf of MacEwan University, I'd like to thank you so much for joining me today and for having this conversation.
ZIETSMAN
You're welcome.
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INGRAM
Alright, it's Katrina and Annetta here, and Johann Zietsman. What an interesting guy.
LATHAM
Amazing.
INGRAM
Yeah, so he took over the helm of the organization before it became Arts Commons, and he led the organization through the whole rebrand. It was really interesting to chat with him about just the challenges inherent in going through a rebrand of a major organization located in the downtown of Calgary.
LATHAM
Yeah, I thought it was really interesting, what a smart guy. One of the things I really thought was interesting was that it's downtown, and that people go through it a lot to catch trains or trams and things like that, and that they really embrace it in the way they remodelled and in the way they have even thought about the rebranding, and even how they do stuff in this space. I think it's really clever how they've done that.
INGRAM
Absolutely. It was really interesting to know that it's one of the largest arts incubators in all of Canada, and it's really hard not to engage with that for the reasons that you just said. You really just encounter it as you're going about your business in downtown Calgary. One of the things I like is that they're really trying to create opportunities for people to interact with the space. He talked about doing the events in the parking garage, which I thought was super unique. And just the volume of events that they're doing at that space is really quite impressive.
LATHAM
Yeah, and I think his talk really engaged at such a level where you want to go, “what are they doing, and how do I get to be part of it?”
INGRAM
It was also great to hear that he feels that there is room for more art incubators in Calgary. He doesn't feel at all in competition with some of these other organizations. Essentially, there’s room for everyone to play, which is great.
LATHAM
It was a really wonderful interview.
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This show was created by:
Executive Producer - Annetta Latham
Producer - Katrina Ingram
Technical Producer - Paul Johnston
Research Assistant - Rael Lockwood
Theme Music - Emily Darfur
Cover Art - Constanza Pacher
Latham, A. (Executive Producer). Regan-Ingram, K (Host). (2018, April 16). Artful Conversations [Season 1: Episode 4]. Johann Zietsman. Podcast retrieved from https://www.artfulconversations.com/transcriptions/2019/1/4/ep-4-johann-zietsman
Artful Conversations is a production of Annetta Latham in partnership with MacEwan University. All rights reserved.