INTRO
LATHAM
Welcome to Artful Conversations, a podcast about arts and cultural management. I’m Annetta Latham.
INGRAM
And I'm Katrina Ingram. We interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture, sharing their stories, insights, and observations.
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LATHAM
Hello, and welcome to Artful Conversations, I’m your host Annetta Latham. Today I'm speaking with Chantell Ghosh, the executive director of the Citadel Theatre. Chantell, thanks for being here today.
GHOSH
Thrilled to be here, thanks for having me.
LATHAM
The Citadel is Edmonton's largest theatre, housing five different theatre spaces, and is based in downtown. Chantell, you've only been in your role since January, so for a short time. How's it going so far?
GHOSH
It's going great. I've had a chance to meet our team, it’s a really dedicated and passionate team, got to be part of what is going on with the current season, and most importantly got to be part of planning the announcement for what we're doing next season. All really exciting things coming together that I got to be part of, landing in my role at a great time.
LATHAM
Fantastic. You’re a native Edmontonian, and you've been gone for a while. What attracted you back to Edmonton, was it this role specifically?
GHOSH
It was really a combination of things. I’ve been living in the U.S. for the last eight years, Pittsburgh and Fort Lauderdale, and had great professional experiences there, and have had a great experience in total. But home is home, and it was really important for me to come back to Canada, and to really invest in the city that I grew up in. That has been the plan for a couple of years, and this role came and found me. I wasn't looking for a role at the time, we had a horizon for a move, and this was a little bit earlier than we had planned, but it came and found me. When I heard about the transition that the Citadel was in, the plans for the future, where they were envisioning they wanted to be, it was something that really excited me, especially in the context of what's happening in the city as a whole.
LATHAM
Fantastic. Chantell, your career journey has been quite fascinating. You've gone from a lawyer, to a marketer both in the arts and in the corporate world. Can you speak a bit more about your career, and how it shaped your ability to create effective marketing?
GHOSH
When I look at what looks like a disparate past between law, marketing, for-profit, non-profit, everything I've done has been about storytelling. About creating a narrative, whether it's for a client as a lawyer, or when I started to work in both the for-profit and non-profit world, that was creating a story around a brand, because that is how you are going to connect to either your audience in the arts world, or your customer in the corporate world. So, it's really about “how do I tell the story in a way that connects with our target audience?”
LATHAM
What took you from from lawyer to marketer?
GHOSH
I did love being a lawyer for many reasons, it was intellectually challenging, it was certainly lucrative. You get all of the benefits of being you know in that career. But it did not feed enough of who I am. Keeping track of your life in six minute increments is dire. It is not fun at all. There was so much of it that I felt wasn't results generated. You weren't going towards that final moment. It was a very long process to see results, and sometimes pragmatic approaches, or creative approaches were not particularly rewarded. It was something that I enjoyed, it gave me an incredible basis to be able to understand contracts, understand the law, understand obligations, and how things work, and take in new information and distill it. But it just wasn't feeding enough of who I am as a person.
LATHAM
Fantastic. In relation to orchestrating the marketing plan in an arts organization versus a corporation, how does your background in the business world influence your approach to the work you're undertaking at the Citadel?
GHOSH
A big part of it is seeing what is connecting with audiences, and where your challenges are. Finding out your pain points, from a messaging standpoint, what are your pain points? What are people assuming about the Citadel that actually isn't correct? What are we doing that they don't know about? How do we connect that message to an audience? The challenge in the arts in general is how you serve your existing loyal audience, subscribers, ticket holders, and reach down to that next generation of theatregoers. That's going to be in a much different way. So in a way, you're kind of paddling two boats at the same time. How do you maintain that relationship with your base, and how do you reach down and make sure that next generation of theatregoers know that there's a place for them in your programming and your organization.
LATHAM
Fantastic. We'll explore that a little bit later. What I'm really interested in is how you create a marketing plan in the what is going to be very busy dialogue of the downtown district area, when you’ve got the RAM, the Art Gallery, the Winspear, the Citadel, how do you find your voice in that?
GHOSH
I think that where the strength is, is actually tethering together all of the downtown arts organizations. Both these sort of cornerstone organizations that people are more familiar with, whether it be the Winspear, or now the new location of the RAM, the Art Gallery, and also the smaller organizations that can come under our umbrella and be embraced. We are creating an amazing tipping point of a true arts district that can have a lot of influence on what happens in downtown. And instead of, for example, looking at the ICE District and saying “all of this is in total competition with what we're doing,” this is collaboration. This is creating a place where all of those supporting businesses, like restaurants and cafes, can thrive. We’re working together to bring people downtown to understand the great things that are going on at the center of Edmonton.
LATHAM
Fantastic. How do you take risks and bold ideas while still managing the brand of the Citadel?
GHOSH
Well, luckily in theatre we are encouraged to take risks. Certainly when it comes to very provocative programming, and those kinds of things, and perhaps bringing in multidisciplinary genres within the building, on the stage. But we also have to balance that off with sustainability, so when you look at our programming, we will do an amazing, raucous production of Mamma Mia! that many people can relate to, who doesn't like ABBA, who doesn't want to go sing along. That really is an approachable piece that we have a large volume of people coming to see. But then we can turn around and do Children of God, which is about Indigenous issues, which is about the residential schools’ history in Canada. It is a beautiful piece that tackles a much more difficult and controversial topic from a very balanced and artistic way. You have to do both. That's where you really can reach different people, and hopefully what happens, and what we've seen happen, is that when you have that variety, people are exposed to something different that they weren't necessarily looking for.
LATHAM
So, marketing is an important component in developing a brand. At the Citadel, what are some of the marketing strategies that have been successful, and what are some of the things that you're looking at changing as you’re developing things into the future?
GHOSH
We've been really good at marketing to our traditional audience, and reaching out to them in a way that they're comfortable with, whether it be direct mail and phone, and then having that personal connection. Where that transformation is going to occur is now moving into the digital realm, moving into connecting with a new audience where they are. That is going to see us really taking a big jump into social media, and much more integrated marketing. So instead of just doing billboard placements, and bus ads, and radio ads, and TV, and direct mail, is looking at full campaigns around the season, around the show. In a way that is unexpected, in a way that creates viral interest. We're going to be doing some great things with Silver Arrow at the end of this season, and trying new ways to reach people who otherwise aren't in our funnel. It's a really important part around that transformation.
I think our brand transformation has to go with that. We have been probably seen as a very traditional brand. We've got the benefit of 50-some years of stability as an arts organization. But sometimes, if you're not careful, that can be stagnation in terms of your approach. We're going to mix things up a little bit, and we're going to re-envision our brand. What does that “Citadel” mean. Unfortunately, the word Citadel means fortress. That is not how we want to be perceived. We want to be seen as a hub, as a place where other genres, other theatre types, can come and be in our space. And we can support them and create some synergies from that. That is really where we're moving to, much more integrated, much bolder, and very much on digital transformation.
LATHAM
That feeds into the concept where I think people are challenged globally, and that is audience development. Most theatres, and the Citadel is one of them, relies on audience attending performance, and generating revenue basically from core ticket sales. However, the relationship that you want to build with an audience is usually more and beyond simple ticket sales. Can you explain how the Citadel is going to look at building its audience beyond just seat filling?
GHOSH
Absolutely. We are looking at end-to-end patron experience. It's that idea of creating a conversation between the audience and the organization. It is not enough to simply sell a ticket. They show up, go to the show, and then they leave. How do we build that conversation prior to them arriving, and even buying the ticket? What is that experience in the lobby, and in the building like when they arrive, before they step into the theatre, and how do we continue that conversation beyond the theatre? Again, a lot of that plays into digital, and into connection that way, because we've got 100,000 people going through our doors here. I'm not going to knock on all of their doors and say, “let's have a chat over a cup of tea,” that might be a little strange. But how do we carry on that conversation? Then they become the ambassadors, and the influencers that bring people into the building. It's a really important part of what we're doing, so that conversation. Also, what is that patron experience?
Traditional arts in particular, whether it be the opera, the ballet, the symphony, the theatre, are facing an issue where it's seen as something that is elite. They are facing an issue where young people, students, people in their 20s and 30s, may not feel comfortable coming into that space. They may feel like they're going to feel out of place, that they're not prepared for it, are they dressed appropriately, are they supposed to have very sophisticated conversation over wine, that kind of thing. Again, it's about how we reach that next generation, let them know that the theatre is the place to come. You can come in your jeans. We’re going to create interesting experiences, because again, we've got an experience-driven group of next generation people. I don't want to say millennials. I think it's a millennial mindset, that they want the experience, they want the backstage access, they want to know more about how that set was built. They want to see how costumes are made, I think, all of that experience. It's a really broad attack on that whole patron experience.
LATHAM
How do you build your audience through using different programming.
GHOSH
We’ve got a wonderful new artistic director who is just inspiring to work with, and that's the big part of why I was very much attracted to this role. There's some people who are play pickers, and some theatres are that, and that's fine. That works for them. He is very much looking to develop a narrative around our vision of being inclusive, of being innovative, of being international. So when he is building a season, he is looking at things like gender balance. Do we have strong playwrights from both genders? Are we telling stories that previously have not been told? Underrepresented voices of our Indigenous people, of women, of the immigrant story. Who has been locked out of the artistic experience, and how do we unlock the door and bring them in?
Again, balancing out commercial viability, making sure you've got something that's accessible, and making sure you have something that is risky. Innovation, inclusion, internationalism, that's the way we can build out a balanced program that brings different audiences in the door. It is not a short term investment. You have to have the long view. You don't say, “well, we put on this one play, and it wasn't a hit, so now we're never going to do a play like that again.” It is very much saying, “what was the experience of those people that did come? How are we turning them into our ambassadors for new work, for innovative work, and building on that every season?” So it's the long view, but I think it's the one that's going to be most successful.
LATHAM
How do you then look at converting individuals who come to a show, into lifetime audience members? And how do you maintain their loyalty and their engagement, especially with what's going to look like a very interesting program?
GHOSH
I always liken it to a staircase, in that you have to get people on that first step. That’s coming to one show, whatever show it is at the Citadel, as a single ticket buyer, and we want them to have that awesome experience and have that conversation where they say “wow, theatre maybe is for me.” Then it's bringing them back. So, creating offers that reduce the risk for them.
We're all risk-averse, and we all like things to be fairly straightforward. So you've come to the Citadel once, how do we invite you back in? It's like inviting you back to our house, you know, I had a great night at your house, we invite you back, and we build that friendship. It's a relationship, getting them back. Once you've come to two shows in a season, well now it really makes sense for you to be a Choose Your Own three-show subscriber. So how do we convert to that, we say “we're going to make it really easy and affordable for you to now be part of that family on a three show subscription, now you're a subscriber,” and creating events for you to really feel part of that family. Inviting you into the building, giving you access to the different spaces, and understanding that we have a wide variety of things reaching out to you. Saying, “hey, we've got this amazing academy, and a great school, so here's another way you can get involved, here's a way you can get involved in one of our smaller shows,” or other things we're offering. When you build that relationship, it's done like pearls on a string, or like steps on the stairs. All of a sudden you get people halfway up the staircase, and they're like “we'll carry on and get to the top of the stairs and see what that's about.” Some people are quite happy being in the middle of that staircase, and we love them too. You’re trying to gradually work people up the staircase, and recognize that you're always going to have people on every step, and that's fine.
LATHAM
Fantastic. You mentioned before, inclusion, innovation, and internationalism, the three I’s that are listed as the Citadel's vision. It’s directly in the Citadel’s vision statement. Can you talk a bit about what these mean, and how it impacts the brand? We talked about in relation to programming, but in relation to the brand and your future development of the brand.
GHOSH
Absolutely. And I cannot take credit for the three I’s. Those are the words and the vision of Daryl Cloran, artistic director. I'm quite happy to ride in his boat on that, because I think that they are just wonderful ways of identifying how we are going to move forward as an organization. It obviously does start with the artistic programming, because first and foremost, we're a theatre and what we put on the stage has to reflect that. So it comes to international programming. This year we have the collaborative work of Ubuntu. We are working with those broad stories that aren't just local, but have that international appeal, the international flavour that brings a different viewpoint into our space and into our city.
We've got the innovation, so we're going to be doing a lot of work with digital, with virtual reality, that kind of thing. And some really bold programming next year, for example we have The Candidate and The Party, which are two plays written by the same playwright, that are going to go on at exactly the same time in two different theatres, with exactly the same cast. You have your audience for one, your audience for the other, and they get a full experience. They're seeing a full play, but knowing that these are interconnected stories with the same cast, I mean that's pretty innovative. So there's some really cool things happening on the innovation front, there's some really cool things going on on the international front.
In terms of inclusion, it's very much about how we bring those voices into that tent of the theatre that have not necessarily been included in the tent. So Indigenous programming like Children of God or Redpatch next year, but also with our work with The Tempest. We are partnering with the Swedish National Deaf Theatre to create a classic play, which is part of what we're about, we're using virtual reality, and augmented reality. Plus, half of our cast is going to be hearing impaired, half is going to be hearing. So how do we create an experience, both from an audience perspective and from a production perspective that crosses those boundaries? From a programming perspective, we're there.
My job now is to take Daryl’s wonderful vision for programming, and reach out from a marketing and brand perspective. So how do we reach out and attract plays and audiences internationally? I think that part of that is our marketing as an arts district, and as a city, to make sure that when people come here, they see arts as very much part of why they should be coming to Edmonton. Inclusion, and making sure that our team in our building, that our corporate sponsors, that our board, and that who we are hiring and putting at the table as our stakeholders represent a wide variety of views. And again, underrepresented voices, traditionally, to make sure that we're getting their viewpoints as we're building on our brand and our outreach. So that we're reaching new Canadians, we're reaching groups that previously felt locked out of the arts as audience members. So that inclusion side of it is, as an organization, who are we marketing to, and how are we marketing, and who's in the building? Really, it starts right there.
And then innovation, how do we build out our marketing beyond the traditional things that arts have done, and arts have to keep doing, what works, what makes sense? But I think that there's a lag if you look at private enterprise, and you look at corporations, they're very much far down the road in terms of digital outreach, video outreach. How do we reach people on social media? How do we do campaigns with augmented reality, and create really cool outreaches? We’re all on our phone. So if I'm not on your phone at the Citadel, I'm not reaching a bunch of people. That's where I'm going to bring the innovation, and my team is working really hard to bring the innovation of how we reflect what is going on onstage in a way that connects in that digital age, and that the arts have traditionally not done. They haven't wanted to show too much, you don't want to show snippets of a show, you want people to come to the show. We have to get into a different mindset, and we have to bring people in and give them a piece of it. And they're still going to come. We need them to understand why they want to come, why they connect with that story.
LATHAM
How do you see the Citadel connecting with Canada Council for the Arts’ brief in relation to international, about not just bringing here, but getting Canadians out into the international arena?
GHOSH
We’re very early in the days of how we can do that as a regional theatre. One great example of that was our production of Hadestown in November. We lured, through the hard work of my predecessor Penny Ritco, and Daryl Cloran, lured the producers of Hadestown from New York to Edmonton to build out a Broadway-bound show. Something that some people don’t know is that when a show is destined for Broadway, they test it elsewhere, because there's always going to be tweaking, and fine tuning, from the score, to the script, to the set. And how do you do it in a safe place? We lured them here. They built out this beautiful show. It was an unmitigated success commercially in the city, people came to see it, but now we have this wonderful story about how the Citadel Theatre was able to do this collaborative effort with their Canadian cast and American cast to create this great show, which is now bound for the U.S. The New York Times told the story of Edmonton theatre, and really had people looking at Edmonton and the Citadel in a different way, saying, “we can do that there?”
There is some amazing talent, how do we export that? It's something that we have to be measured about. We have to be very strategic about how we pick our winners. You can't throw resources at every single thing. Where are the best chances of success? Because success will breed more success. When you make the New York Times, and they say this was a great place to produce a Broadway-bound show, that's a really big success. Now we've got to build on that. That's the strategy.
LATHAM
Fantastic. Sometimes as the head of an organization, you need to deal with public relations issues and the media. I'm sure you've had your share of experiences, especially over some of the past jobs that you've had, dealing with challenging situations. I'm wondering if you could share some advice to future leaders on how to manage public relations issues?
GHOSH
Well, of course, the only organizations that don't have public relations issues are those that don't deal with the public. So the minute you either have a product to sell, or a ticket to sell, you're dealing with public. There are obviously wide, diverse opinions out in the world about every issue that there is, and it's so much easier now to find yourself in the middle of a public relations issue with social media, how quickly news moves, those kinds of things. I always look at two ways you end up in a PR issue.
One is that you know you're making a decision, or you're launching a product, or you're making an announcement that is going to garner a reaction. So you can prepare for those, and you've got a little bit of a runway and a horizon to prepare for those kinds of things, anticipate stakeholder responses, and have an answer for that. If, at all times, whether you are in a nonprofit, whether you're in for-profit, you look at the core of what it is you are doing as an organization, as a business, and you say “are we being true to the core of who we are, and what we're doing?” and use that as your guiding light, build your narrative around that. Because at the end of the day, people may agree or disagree with a decision, they may agree or disagree with how something was handled. But if you've acted and communicated in accordance with what your core mission is, at the very least, you can't argue with that. You can say “well, you always get the benefit of hindsight, maybe we would have made a different decision, maybe we would have handled that differently, but were we acting in accordance with our core mission, with the principles of who we are as a for-profit company and not-for-profit company.” It will generally steer you ultimately in the right direction.
You can't control everything. There's also the other side of it. When I worked for an airline, we dealt with three hurricanes, some airport shootings, and probably the most challenging was as we were dealing with a labor issue involving our pilots, and there was a situation where a big number of flights were cancelled resulting in a brawl in the airport. And we didn't plan for that. We actually found out about it because of social media, because of our social listening, but then we had to work our way out of that.
Whether it's the hurricane, the shootings that we had to deal with, the brawls, the key with any PR issue is to sit back, think about the narrative, explain what is causing the pain points, because sometimes a simple explanation defuses everything. When everyone is saying, “why are my flights canceled? There's a hurricane, but not in my city.” And you say, “well 60 percent of flights were canceled, and all the planes are now out of position, and all of our people that fly the planes are now out of position. So notwithstanding that you're flying from L.A. to Detroit, there's no hurricane, your plane isn't there, and the pilot’s in a different city.” People get it. Most people are very reasonable. You can't play to the fringes, you just can't. You have to play to your core stakeholders. Say, “here's where we're coming from, here's our story, here's what we're dealing with, and what we're trying to balance.” It diffuses so much when people understand the challenges you're dealing with, all the interests you're trying to balance, sometimes diametrically opposed, and you stick to what your main goal is. Which is running your organization in accordance with your key principles.
LATHAM
So basically, stay in front of the story. And stay in front of the dialogue.
GHOSH
And lean into it. Because if you can’t lean into it, you create a vacuum. People will fill it with whatever they think your motivations are, they'll fill it with conspiracy theories, they'll fill it with nonsense sometimes, and that's a runaway train that you can never catch.
LATHAM
Yeah, fantastic. What is one defining thing that you think is critical to building a successful audience that will show continued support?
GHOSH
You have to listen to them. We often think that when we're producing art, whether it be theatre, or music, or whatever it is we're producing, that we're a broadcast station. This is a two-way conversation. When your audience tells you something, and sometimes they vote with their dollars, sometimes they vote with their feet, sometimes they vote with their applause, you have to create opportunities for them to share with you how they feel about their experience. You have to listen. Whether it's social media, a lot of people won’t bother phoning or writing in, they are out there sharing their experiences. So where are they? Listen to them, and respond. Engage in the conversation.
When you change something, when you do something, and they question it, provide them an answer so that they get it at the very least. They feel heard. They will share with you what they love about what you're doing, and what excites them. They will share with you what doesn't resonate. The more you listen, too, the more you get a broad view of what is working, or what you have to change in terms of your approach. If something's not working, if something that you thought was going to be very successful is just not connecting, why? How do you get in front of the next time, use that as a learning and say “okay, there’s a show coming up that we're probably going to have a similar challenge with, that is going to be seen as only for a specific group, or is going to be seen as too heavy for the average audience member,” how do we get in front of that story and share with them why they want to come in advance, and use those learnings?
LATHAM
Yeah, it's a continuous relationship, which is fantastic. Can you talk a bit about how the Citadel Theatre approaches fund development?
GHOSH
Well fund development for any arts organization is a challenge. Over 50 percent of our operating costs are covered by our ticket sales. We're very lucky that way, and we're constantly looking to move that number up, because you pay for what you value. We have also been incredibly lucky that we have some strong support from the founding families who decided that the Citadel Theatre needed to happen in Edmonton, which was very bold, and innovative, and have continued to assist and to help us to make sure that we had a sustainable base.
There's a lot of room in the middle of those things, where we have to reach out to the community, we have to reach out and find alignment with corporations who see what we're doing, and individuals who see what we're doing, and are in a position to help us. And say, “yes, we want to build new work with local playwrights, with Canadian artists, with Canadian set designers, we want to support that, because that's a very big investment.” And also reaching out to our government agencies, and saying “this is what we're doing, and how it fits with what you are trying to do,” and how we make sure that we are tapping into those different traditional modes of funding.
But you have to get very creative, and reach out, and think “who are the stakeholders that would be very interested in this project, or interested in what we're doing this season,” but we normally wouldn't reach out to. How do we connect with them, and say, “we know the theatre maybe is not something you've traditionally supported, but here's a really great thing that we're doing that resonates with your customer base, or with the work that you're doing as a company.” It's really like being a bit of a detective, and saying “who has been with us for the long haul, and how do we make sure that they're getting their needs met in terms of what we're doing,” as the answer to why they invested in us in the first place. How do we take our current base and get them up that staircase of saying, “you've been supporting us for a long time, and we really would like to do this, but we need some additional support,” and tapping into that, then finding new ways to support our work in a way that's mutually beneficial.
Recognizing what those needs are on the other side, it's very easy for us to say “I know what I need.” But how do we tie into what the needs of our supporters? Are they looking for volunteer opportunities, or are they looking to have a physical space? Meet their needs for different things that they're doing throughout the year. Are they looking for a place to be able to bring their employees, or their clients as a recognition and reward and networking? What are all the different things that we can do? We have to get much more ‘concierge’ about that, as opposed to saying “well here's package A, here's package B, here’s package C, which would you like?” Maybe none of those things appeal, so they go well, Citadel’s not for us. Well okay, what would work? What are your needs, and where would you feel that this is a great investment of your corporate responsibility dollars, and in a way that we can help you achieve some of your other goals that aren't just about helping us.
LATHAM
So the Citadel's just been awarded $500,000 for funding from the Canada Cultural Spaces Fund to update some of the facilities. What does that mean for the Citadel, and how will it impact on future audiences attending events at the Citadel? Is the waterfall going?
GHOSH
The waterfall is, so far, there to stay. We do have a challenge with our building, which is beautiful and in the heart of downtown, but it's in its 40s. As we know, when we hit our 40s, maintenance and repairs are needed. I can personally attest to that. This grant was specifically for technology and assets going towards programming in the theatre space itself. So we also have to come up with a matching grant for that, and to spend an equal amount of our own money in relation to that. There are some things that are not particularly sexy that we're going to be investing in. For example, all of the fire drapery in our theatres is aged out, we're replacing that. It is very important. It is necessary, it is a safety issue in terms of audience experience. Hopefully it will not impact them at all, they will never have to use it, we’ll never have to worry about our fire retardant drapery, but that's an expensive investment. We’re looking to replace things, and get our catwalks and some of our infrastructure up to new codes. Of course that was to code when we built the building, now there's new codes, and we want to make sure that our team and our audience have the safest experience. So safety, number one. That's where we're investing first. Again, not super sexy, but important. Then we are going into sound and lighting capabilities, and being able to produce very large productions without having to constantly rent equipment, or have to downscale what we're showing our audiences because we simply don't have the technology or the equipment heft to produce it in its full glory. We aren’t going to have to worry about that anymore, so that is something that audiences can be very excited about.
We're also looking at our accessibility from an audience standpoint, so when we talked about that inclusiveness, is making sure that our wheelchair accessibility is actually up to current standards. Things change over time in terms of what you need to accommodate. We want to change the hearing assist, creating language services for the hearing impaired, so that they can come and enjoy the theatre experience and feel connected. All of those kinds of things, we're investing there. But it also means that we can free up funds that were going towards those things to do some much needed repairs and maintenance on the building. It won't bring us anywhere close to where we need to be, this is going to be an ongoing challenge that I will be facing, and we'll be facing as an organization over the next several years. But as far as I know, the waterfall’s there to stay.
LATHAM
It looks like it will be a challenge, an absolute project management exercise, because we've mentioned earlier there are five theatre spaces in that building. We're not just talking about one space, there are five of them. So to update five different spaces so that they work to the best of their ability and what each space should be, will be an interesting challenge for you and the team.
GHOSH
Absolutely. And we want to work with our stakeholders. We're working with the City, working with other arts organizations that we think we can become a hub for, and become sort of an umbrella organization. And bring them into our space to be collaborative, and create a hub for creativity beyond theatre in that space. The more people you can bring under the umbrella, obviously you're serving more of them, but it gives you more options in terms of what you're doing with your building. Empty space is an opportunity.
So where will the Citadel be in the next 50 years, and what will that space look like? I don't yet know, that is a story to be revealed. But what's wonderful is that there's great conversations happening around where will we be, how will we look, how will we operate in the next 50 years, and how can we be part of that in the most sustainable way?
LATHAM
How much of the alterations and the changes are you referencing from other theatres that have gone through a similar update?
GHOSH
In terms of how we're using our spaces?
LATHAM
Yeah, because the Citadel is not the only one that looks like this around the world. What I think about is the Arts Centre in Melbourne, it's a similar big space. It's got similar multifaceted spaces inside it. It went through an update phase. Is the Citadel kind of going, “these guys have done it like this, we've got to use that as a bit of a model to help guide us through this?”
GHOSH
Yes, and there's always the thing, as you've been built up over time, with 50-some years of building and meeting the needs, is do to our current facilities meet our needs now? Are they the best use of space? Are our theatres the right size for us to make sure that we're getting the maximum benefit from them? Can we use them in a way that’s sustainable? We’ve changed how we use the Rice Theatre space, which is now The Club. It's a small venue. There's only particular productions you can put in there that make sense financially, and create that intimacy, yet at the same time it's such a beautiful space. How do we maximize how we're using that?
Certainly taking instruction from other types of theatres, other arts organizations, and looking at theatres that are just building now, and how they are doing things differently. Sometimes you work very hard to retrofit and redevelop your space, but you're not thinking about “if I was building it today, what would I build that would be the perfect thing?” Sometimes I have to let go of an idea, say “yes, this was a great idea, but it's not serving our needs now,” and leave room for new ideas. It's a challenge. We're right in the thick of that transformation, what are we going to do with our space? What does the perfect Citadel space look like? How do we invite others into it to make sure it meets their needs, so that we are maximizing every square inch of our building? And what is the next 50 years going to look like, I think it's going to look very different from what we've done now. So how do we build a bridge to that, because it's a long bridge.
LATHAM
I think it's really exciting. I’ve had the privilege of talking with Scottish Opera, and they have gone through this process as well, to the point with airports and warehouses, where they use those as development spaces. It's a very innovative way of thinking, and a very left field but exciting way to do it. I'm looking forward to seeing what you and the team develop. As we're wrapping up our conversation today, is there anything else that you'd like to add?
GHOSH
I'm so excited about what we're doing at the Citadel, not just because of the great programming that is happening. I think people are going to be really blown away by the innovation that they're seeing from a programming standpoint. Even if you didn't know anything about a play when you walked in, you are going to leave impressed with what the team and the artistic director are putting together to direct and build these productions. It’s really phenomenal, and it makes me just so excited inspired to be part of it.
But probably the one thing that I would love everyone to really take to heart is that you need to be part of building the city you want to live in. I don't want to live in a city that doesn't have a vibrant arts scene. It's really important to me to make sure that I'm investing in and supporting those organizations. So that would be my my grateful call to action, when you want to support great theatre, that means supporting playwrights, and supporting actors, and supporting costume designers, and electricians, and lighting, and all of the people that build those productions. When you buy a ticket, you're supporting them. So buy the tickets, come out and see what we're doing. See what every arts organization is doing, and you will be part of building Edmonton as this amazing city that everyone will want to live in.
LATHAM
That's wonderful. Thank you for your time today, I really appreciate it.
GHOSH
Thank you for having me.
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LATHAM
It's Annetta here in the studio with Katrina. That was a great interview with Chantell from the Citadel. Amazing, having such energy, and really understanding of what audience development’s all about.
INGRAM
Yes. She sounds like a really fun person to talk to, so I'm a little jealous that you got to interview her. One of the things I really liked was her example of audience engagement. This idea of the staircase, and getting audiences on that first step of the staircase, then inviting them back to re-engage, and getting them to be a subscriber, and just moving them along in the relationship. It sounded like she had a really clear sense of how she wanted to bring her customers on this journey. And I thought it was really interesting how she was approaching that.
LATHAM
Yeah, very much so. And even in the framework of their mandate, she’s using the mandate as a way to approach that kind of stuff with the audience. She doesn't see the mandate as a separate thing from the audience development. The mandate is centralized around inclusion, innovation, and internationalism, and building the programming to reach new audiences. I think it was really clever the way she has used that as the platform to engage the audience and build their audience development.
INGRAM
Very interesting, and I thought it was an interesting coincidence that the word Citadel actually means fortress, but she said “I want to be more like a hub than a fortress!” One of the things that spoke to me is a contrast between something super commercial like Mamma Mia! and then also offering Children of God. It really gave me an example of the wide range of programming, and how it's reaching out to different audience segments. She also talked about doing something with the Swedish National Deaf Theatre with The Tempest reimagined for an audience, half of which are hearing impaired. So you think about all the audience segments in that, how they're reaching new audiences, including underserved communities. I thought it was really quite amazing.
LATHAM
Yeah absolutely. I think it really goes back to her innate belief that building an audience is a two-way relationship. It's a relationship with the organization and the audience, it's not the organization telling the audience what they want to do. When you listen to her interview, you really feel that’s the core of what she believes and how she works.
INGRAM
Absolutely. She mentioned the word listening, and how important it is at the Citadel, that they want to listen to make sure that they're understanding their audiences, and as you say building that dialogue to have a two-way relationship.
LATHAM
I think it's really key when you think about what you're doing with audience development. I think her words are the best ones to finish on, that you need to be part of building the city that you live in.
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This show was created by:
Executive Producer - Annetta Latham
Producer - Katrina Ingram
Technical Producer - Paul Johnston
Research Assistant - Rael Lockwood
Theme Music - Emily Darfur
Cover Art - Constanza Pacher
Latham, A. (Executive Producer). Latham, A (Host). (2018, April 9). Artful Conversations [Season 1: Episode 2]. Chantell Ghosh. Podcast retrieved from https://www.artfulconversations.com/transcriptions/2019/1/4/ep-2-chantell-ghosh
Artful Conversations is a production of Annetta Latham in partnership with MacEwan University. All rights reserved.