INTRO
Welcome to Artful Conversations, a podcast about arts and cultural management, and that Altham and guest hosts interview leaders who help shape the world of arts and culture. We share their stories, their insights and observations. This season has been brought to you with the support of the Faculty of Fine Arts and Communications at MacEwan University.
HEATHER: Welcome to Artful Conversations. I'm your host, Heather Fitzsimmons Frey. Today, my guest is Sue Fitzsimmons, executive director of Edmonton Opera. Sue Fitzsimmons joined Edmonton Opera's executive director in July 2022 after serving as vice president academic at both the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology and Medicine College. She's a long time Edmontonian who believes in the power of creativity and the arts to build and sustain community. With over 15 years of senior leadership experience in the public, not for profit sectors, including within government. Sue has a track record of helping executive leadership and professional teams identify and accomplish the outcomes critical to their success. Sue's early career began as a teacher and music educator within the K-12 school system. She has taught music methods within the Faculty of Education at both the University of Alberta and the University of Winnipeg and is an experienced choral singer and pianist. Sue holds a Ph.D. from the University of Alberta, where her research focused on the power of esthetic experience. So welcome Sue.
SUE: Thank you. Heather I'm super excited to be here.
HEATHER: I'm so happy that you're here too. And one of the things that you're more official bio doesn't say is that we've also known each other for quite a long time. I was thinking about it. Is it about 20 years now?
SUE: I think that would be about right. Yes. Yeah. So it's great to be here with you. It's nice that we have a. Yeah, personal and professional relationship in some really interesting ways.
HEATHER: Thank you so much. So I'm going to get started with some of the questions that we have for you today. And I'd like you to start by telling us about your role as executive director within the Edmonton Opera.
SUE: Sure. So as you noted in the intro, I took this role on this past summer, July 2022, and it was a really interesting role for me because it's my first time leading within the arts, and so I have a ton of leadership experience, but not within this industry. So I was really excited to come into the role for a couple of reasons. One is because I've always had a passion for the arts and it's something that I believe very strongly in. And so being able to participate and kind of lend my expertise and experiences is really awesome. But also what I love about it is I get to learn and I've been doing a lot of that since I started, which is great. In our company, we have both an artistic director and an executive director, which is kind of interesting. I think that's not an unusual model. What I will say is we very much have a shared leadership, and so while Artistic Director Joel Ivany is really the artistic visionary and I'm kind of on the business side of things, it is very much a collaborative approach, which for my own leadership philosophy, I really appreciate.
HEATHER: Mm hmm. That's wonderful. And I'd also like you to speak a little bit about the Edmonton Opera. So what makes opera in Edmonton unique?
SUE: Great question. And I would say it's something we're still I don't want to say working out, but I think it's an ongoing conversation, let's put it that way. Not only am I new to arts leadership, but I'm actually new to opera, which is also kind of interesting. And one of the things that I'm really excited about for Edmonton Opera is that there is a real commitment to thinking about how do we evolve not only Edmonton Opera but opera in Edmonton, which is, you know, an interesting turn of phrase. But I think opera, at least from my experience thus far, is a form that where there's some innovation going on. But at the same time it's been a pretty traditional form for a very long time. And so the opportunity to think about what does it mean to do some of the traditional works that people know and love and connect with and recognize, but also start to ask questions about what does it look like to do opera differently? How can we be part of that story for opera in the future? And what does it mean to kind of combine both of those things? Because it's not about letting go of the past. It is about evolving the past. And so our most recent production of Orphée+, for example, took a very traditional opera, I would say arguably one of the oldest or perhaps the oldest and used nontraditional instrumentation, some nontraditional staging, but really still brought to life, you know, the beautiful score and libretto that has been part of that opera forever and ever. So, yeah, it's a really fun time.
HEATHER: Could you share a few details that you were really excited about? For our listeners who haven't or aren't familiar with that opera or that particular production?
SUE: You mean in terms of the production itself? Sure. So one of the smaller roles of a more so Cupid, we actually hired an aerialist. So someone who does work in aerial silks, who is also an opera singer, which is pretty incredible. Yeah. So watching this amazing woman, her name's Etta Fung, you know, hang upside down from rigging in silks and sing opera was pretty amazing. We also incorporated an electric guitar with our orchestra, which was really neat because when the opera was first, not first written, but as it's evolved over time, one of the things that's been interesting is it is a piece that has evolved even throughout history. And so to be able to take that notion and then say, So what does that mean in 2023? If we look at a stringed instrument and ask about technology, and so bringing in something like an electric guitar was just really interesting musically, but also allowed us to do some effects that, you know, wouldn't be possible otherwise.
HEATHER: No. And wouldn't have been possible. When the opera first came to the stage, there just wasn't an option.
SUE: Exactly.
HEATHER: Yeah. Yeah, that was a wonderful production. I also had the privilege of seeing it, and I think that that electric guitar took the place of the harp, actually. So, yeah, it was really special. What other initiatives are you excited about that the Edmonton Opera has already taken on or is about to take on?
SUE: So I think to really come to the fore, one is I'm really excited about next season because we are continuing this journey of bringing traditional opera to the stage, but also innovating in terms of what we're going to we're going to do. So we're going to open with Carmen sort of the big grand, traditional opera. I'm not exactly sure where our director will take that, but I'm really excited to see. And then we have some other pieces. One is new for us, and it actually came from some work done by Against the Grain Theater in Toronto called Identity, which is one of those examples of a of a story that is current. And it's not that Carmen isn't you could argue, but that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, I really soon to focus on stories that are really relevant today. So that was kind of neat. We're doing Don Giovanni, but using an English libretto and doing kind of a Semi-staged version. Again, I'm not exactly sure where Joel Ivany is going to direct that one. I'm not sure where he's going to take it, but I know in past versions of this particular opera, it's been set in current day as well. So it's like taking the themes that you've seen throughout history, but really modernizing them in the message has become, I don't want to say different, but maybe I don't know. The term that comes to mind is harder hitting, maybe fair, maybe not. So I'm really anyways, I'm really excited about the season coming up. The other thing that Edmonton Opera is really excited about is developing emerging artists. And so we had this beautiful and very generous donation from the Rumbold family last year and we were able to host the first inaugural Rumbold Vocal Prize. And this is really about, you know, identifying those up and coming artists, singers who can really use some additional support. And so we're going to see some of those people from last year in some of the productions coming up this year and just being able to support the evolution of artists within opera as well, I think is really important. So that's two that come to mind.
HEATHER: That's great. Thank you for helping to set the stage for the rest of the conversation, because although Edmonton Opera is the context, I think that we're going to be talking a lot about you and about your work and your work as a leader. So let's start with your background. Let's start with your background, working in public and not for profit art sector. And could you talk about some of the nuances that you're starting to become aware of here?
SUE: Sure. I think, you know, as I was driving in to meet this morning and have this conversation, I was thinking about my career to date. And like most stories, it makes a lot more sense backwards than it ever did forward. And so one of the things, though, that I've really recognized and even as I contemplated this role, is the similarities between some of the work I've done in the past and what it looks like and feels like to work in the arts and so in both government and post-secondary, for example, we have public funding. There's grant funding. There are donors. Our workforce is at least part of it is a unionized workforce. And so there are lots of themes that are very similar and there are some really key differences as well, of course. Obviously, the outcomes were after are quite different in terms of engaging the community and in the arts and telling the kinds of stories that are really important to tell, but also the pace of the business, I guess if I can say it that way, is really different. And one of the places this came to the fore for me recently was early on in my role here with Edmonton Opera. We were sort of putting some finishing touches on a respect in the workplace policy and really this is not new work for me. But what was new was this notion that what does that look like and feel like when you're working in a context where you've brought a group of people in to put a production together, but they're only here for a short amount of time, and when things are very tightly scheduled because time is literally money and relationships in many cases are very newly forming and you don't necessarily have the time to attend to some of the things in the same way you would if you work in a different kind of an organization where you know, there are weeks and months available to have critical conversations. So I'm still working through that. I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's an example of leading in this space that feels quite different to me. That's really interesting and exciting as well. And again, just really proud of Edmonton Opera and actually the whole arts community for tackling some of those really difficult things.
HEATHER: [Mm hmm. I was going to take this in a different direction, but I'd like you to expand on that last thought. What are some of the difficult things that you're proud of Edmonton for starting to approach and maybe tackle?
SUE: [00:12:35] Yeah, and I guess what I meant there is really just this idea and it's, you know, it's not new. So I'm not claiming that Edmonton Opera has a, you know, a lock on this, but just doing some work to create policy around respect in the workplace, thinking about what does it mean to have an ombudsperson kind of on call if you do have some thorny issues that people need support navigating through, really being willing to tackle some of the power dynamics that I think exist in any industry. But, you know, as I said within the arts, when those things come up and when there may be behaviors that are maybe more difficult to manage when you have such a short amount of time to deal with it, it's tough. And so but it's such important work. And I think it takes a lot of courage for everybody to tackle it. So I think that's more what I mean is just yeah, just kind of walking down that path together and yeah and trying to create that kind of culture, not just within Edmonton Opera, but I would say within the entire arts community.
HEATHER: Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's really important to be a part of that.
SUE: Absolutely. Mm hmm.
HEATHER: The other thing that you mentioned in your last answer was about outcomes and how the outcomes are really different in the arts sector. Would you like to expand on that a little?
SUE: Sure. And, you know, as you asked that question, I'm thinking about some of the similarities again, and differences in terms of the kinds of contexts I've worked within before. So if I compare it to education, for example, there are obviously societal outcomes. You know, when you work in the field of education, around, you know, social and economic and, you know, environmental, all sorts of other things. So in some ways the arts are like that too. I think it's it's about entertainment, it's about storytelling, it's about helping people ask questions differently or see the world differently. And there's some real benefit to that kind of work in society. And then similar again, to education, there are also some individual outcomes that matter. You know, people working within the field of arts are very interested in developing their careers. They're very interested in developing as individuals and sort of flexing their creative muscles and all those sorts of things. And so and the same, you know, obviously is true in, in education. When someone seeks a credential there, they're looking to, you know, better themselves as an individual. So, you know, it's an interesting dialog, I guess, between the social and the individual. And and I think it's all it's all heading in a I don't know, want to say the same direction, very different ways of going about it. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like I just talk myself into a corner there so maybe I'll just stop for now.
HEATHER: That's all. Really. I think that what I hear you saying is that the directions that we're moving in are all working to create meaningful, meaningful relationships, meaningful connections, meaningful stories for people and like communities and also individuals and so that brings me to something that you mentioned to me before in a past conversation about defensible decision making, ways of trying to, I think, help people to achieve those kinds of goals within the arts sector. But maybe would you be willing to talk about that idea a little bit?
SUE: Sure. I think for me, that really starts to get into, I guess, that the nuts and bolts of what it means to help an organization run. And as a leader, how do we create some frames to make good decisions? And whether, you know, especially within a field like the arts where there are limited resources and I would say there are sometimes critiques of how those resources are used. Lots of different opinions about the kinds of works that are important or worthy. And so the question becomes really one of how do we how do we make decisions based not necessarily on is this I don't know, sounds a bit blasphemous, but is this fully financially sustainable versus what's defensible? You know, in our decision making, how can we how can we take this set of resources and do the kind of work that's important in this case for our company, but also for the world and use frames that go beyond, I will say, simple in air quotes, financial frames. You know, it's tricky because we are in a field where, you know, money's required to make things go and there are sort of competitions for funds between different organizations and individuals. So I would say it's a tricky business. But thinking about those things in terms of what's defensible here, I think really matters.
HEATHER: Could you give me an example of a decision that could be perceived as controversial because it was requiring certain financial risk or something like that? That might be the kind of thing that you're talking about.
SUE: [Sure. So one of the things that's exciting about our upcoming season at Edmonton Opera is that we are engaging with Against the Grain Theater to look at co-commissioning a new work. And you know, looking at this from a board perspective, say from purely dollars and cents, there's not a financial return on investment immediately in that kind of work. And yet it's really important to invest. And so I think this is one of the tensions. I had the opportunity to go to Vancouver a number of months ago and participate in a panel of folks in Canada talking about opera. And there was a really interesting split, I would say, between sort of smaller, newer companies that were very, very invested in new works and current storytelling and how important that is. And then older, more established, usually larger companies like Edmonton Opera, who at least historically have kind of banked on the cannon and, you know, done the operas that will put people in seats and provide that financial return. The interesting thing is they're both really, really important. But right now, at least, my perception is often the conversation is kind of tending towards either or. So for Edmonton Opera, sort of going back to your question about I'm not sure it's controversial, but for us to kind of take on something that might typically be done by a smaller, newer company, take a bit of a risk, I would say, on commissioning a new work that's telling a different kind of story. Yeah, something is something that I think we need to help our, you know, board understand the value and, and they do. You know, they, they, they've helped us set our direction. So but that might not always be the case in every company.
HEATHER: Mm hmm. Thank you. That was really helpful. Now, I have a question for you that I'll bet you get asked quite a lot, actually. I am wondering what it is like to be a woman in a leadership role like this.
SUE: That's a great question. And I do get asked it in various ways. Yeah. What I will say is that this is sort of my standard line. I, I absolutely identify as a woman and I identify as a leader, but I don't identify as a woman leader or a woman who leads or a woman in leadership, even though I am. So as a professional, really, I just identify as a leader the fact that I am a woman. For me, I don't want to say it's inconsequential. I think that really dismisses so much of the important dialog that happens around gender and leadership. So I am absolutely not trying to be dismissive, but what I will say is my lived experience has been more about who am I as a leader and some of the other parts of Self that I bring to the table that that I have maybe found some struggles with, that I don't equate with being a female necessarily. So for example, I am also a parent and that has its own struggles moving into leadership roles as you try to figure out how to navigate good parenting and being there for your family and being there for the people you lead. I don't believe that specific to female parents, although I do understand that there are different opinions about that. So it's a tricky subject for me. I think as I've tried to navigate sort of what it means to lead over the course of my career, of course, I ask lots of questions about how do I show up in this space? And but honestly, not many of them have felt particularly gendered. There's been lots about power dynamics and experience and hierarchy and those sorts of things. And so they're important questions I've asked and answered for myself, you know, things like what should I wear again, that doesn't feel particularly gendered for me. So, yeah, I'm not sure I'm getting at your question exactly, but maybe only to say it's complicated for me and yeah.
HEATHER: Well, maybe we should talk more about some of the things that do matter. You already mentioned parenting, but what are some of the things about who you are or about your experiences of the world that influence the kind of leader that you strive to be?
SUE: Hmm. There's so much to say in that. The first thing that comes to mind for me has to do with honestly, personality type. And so there's lots of ways into this kind of stuff. But one of the things that I learned a number of years ago had to do with sort of my preferences for behavior and you're probably familiar with the Myers-Briggs type indicator, which is one instrument for thinking about that. But one of the things I learned there is that my specific personality type is relatively rare. And so and it's a type that doesn't necessarily align with all of the ways that people think about leadership, particularly the people side of leadership. And so my preference in terms of behavior is to take a logical approach first, and then I would move into an emotional kind of, hmm, I wonder how this feels. And you know, what does this mean for people? So, you know, from a I don't know I'll say an air quotes again, traditional leadership point of view. I think you could tell the story that that's just how leaders are. Right. Very logical. And but of course, that's not the case. And there's, you know, way more important stories about how we connect with people and enable people. But I would say for me, that's been one of the challenges that I've had to address. And it again, it doesn't have anything to do with gender, but it has everything to do with just how I'm wired as a human being and the things that come naturally and easily to me and the things I've really had to work at in terms of, yeah, how do I support people through this change or through this difficult conversation where in my brain, at least initially, you know, just makes sense. But there's so much more to leadership than what the logical side might say.
HEATHER: So when you mention leading people through things, I read a LinkedIn post of yours a while back where you were talking about simplifying, making things simple as a way to help people to navigate different situations. Could you talk a bit about that?
SUE: Sure. One of the things I really believe in for just human development in general is kind of this notion of playing to your strengths. And because we all have strengths and and I think the more we can elevate those things, the better we can serve. So one of the strengths that I have is the ability to connect the dots and kind of take a complex situation and articulate it in a way that others can understand. And so it took me a while to figure out that this was a strength of mine. But once I did, I tried to be very intentional about using it to help teams just get really clear on what an issue is and what some possible ways of addressing that issue are. Because what I found is that without a clear articulation of sort of the the starting place or the context it gets, it's just difficult to find solutions or pathways forward. And so when I talk about simplifying, generally, it starts there. You know, it starts with setting up a frame that says, do we all, relatively speaking, understand this thing in in more or less the same way so that we've got some shared language and understanding. And often for me there's a visual attached to it so that we can move forward. And so otherwise, in my experience, the conversation can very quickly move to potential solutions. But without that initial frame to kind of ground everybody, I think it's tough to really generate that positive momentum going forward.
HEATHER: Have you been using that kind of strategy already at the Edmonton Opera?
SUE: I'm laughing because, yeah, I have been to some extent. It's also been just a really busy time. We've had a ton of change. And, you know, I'm also in a transition thinking about what does it mean to move from working in large organizations with a ton of resources to basically being on a small team where it's all hands on deck and, you know, one day I'm the HR Manager and, you know, the next day I'm trying to figure out something around technology. So I will give a qualified yes, but there's just been a lot of things that needed tending to in the last number of months. So not to the extent that I'm hoping to in the future.
HEATHER: I love this answer. It's fantastic. I wanted to ask you a question about another thing that you brought up earlier, but I didn't have time to swing round to. It is about engaging with community and community engagement. And one of the things that we talk a lot about at McEwan is how there are multiple communities. It's not really just a monolithic thing. And so I wanted to give you a chance to talk about how you're perceiving the Edmonton arts scene and our communities and the opera communities or the people who are relevant there and what kinds of things you're doing for engagement.
SUE: Yeah. So first of all, I love that notion that there isn't a community. You know, we say that a lot. It's sort of our shorthand, but I love that you've brought some nuance to that conversation because I think it's absolutely critical. I guess the first thing I'm observing, again, as a relative newcomer, both to opera and the arts community in this kind of capacity, is that the people that engage with the arts, the number of people that engage, I would say, are relatively small. And why that matters to me is maybe I'll back up, I'll tell you a story. So recently I had an opportunity to introduce Edmonton Opera to someone who's been in the Edmonton community working as a professional for the last seven years. He's from another country and a huge fan of opera and for the last seven years had no idea that Edmonton had an opera company and he probably hadn't had time to, you know, research and all sorts of things to figure that out. But it just made me remember that when you work within an industry, it can feel bigger in terms of how it's known than it might actually be. And so one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is how do we introduce all of the communities that are, you know, the people that we want to engage with, even just to the idea that that our arts organizations exist, that that we are here doing really amazing work in this city, because I'm not sure that enough people even know. So to me, that's kind of the first step in engagement. Beyond that, right now we are kind of absent a position around community engagement and education, which is one of the things we’ll be addressing in the coming year. In the past, I know we've done lots of work with schools and we invite student groups to our education dress rehearsals. Again, I think we need to do more to help the community know that those things are even out there to take advantage of. And I think as we start to tell different stories, will start to want to deliberately reach out to various communities and ask the important questions about what those stories mean and how they should be told and how they might be interpreted. So it's a super general answer, and I think that's partly because I'm I'm still working it through. And Edmonton Opera, I think is at a bit of an inflection point in terms of how we how we do that work and what we want to pursue.
HEATHER: I know one of the things that you were excited about early on was some of the initiatives that you saw happening that were an effort to make opera more accessible, like in different kinds of spaces.
SUE: Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the things we've been doing over the past year is hosting a monthly opera pub, I think, in our season video. Our director of production said, What's better, what's what could be better than a beer and opera. So we've been hosting views at the at the Blue Chair Cafe, a local Edmonton establishment that has just been a really proud support of the arts for many years and they've just been wonderful hosts for us. This concept actually emerged out of Toronto again from Against the Grain Theater, which is a company that our artistic director helped found. And so really has brought that concept here. You kind of come, you have a meal, you know, maybe you have a glass of wine and you hear opera singers up close and personal. And it's it's really fun and engaging. You know, it's not that notion where you sit in a seat and be shushed. It's really if you hear something amazing in an aria, you hoot’n’ holler. And it it just tries to bring opera, you know, to people that might not otherwise have that experience. So I think there's lots of opportunities to do those kinds of things within the community. We've also been engaged in some recent conversations with the City of Edmonton, which we're super excited about because Edmonton is really working to think about how do they revitalize the downtown core, which I think is a pretty common concern in cities, you know, post-pandemic. And so we're starting to think about how could we sort of activate opera in the downtown core this summer in a way that's going to help our city and really contribute to vibrancy and also introduce people to this amazing art form, which I think lots of people like really opera like. But until you've had a chance to experience it, especially in that up close and personal way, yeah, I think it's hard to really understand without that direct engagement. So really excited about some possibilities there.
HEATHER: It's kind of like a opera intervention.
SUE: Or you know, it's funny, we recently had our gala, which we hold every Valentine's Day. It's a really beautiful fundraiser. We had it at the Fairmont Hotel this year, and one of the things we did was we sort of had a flash mob opera in the middle of our serve, our dining service. So our Edmonton Opera Chorus were dressed as servers, sort of impersonating Fairmont Hotel servers. And then they just broke into song. And it was it was just fun to watch the reactions of our of our guests. Most of these people are opera goers, not all of them. But it just demonstrates, as you said, right, there's this excitement, this engagement. It's just a very different experience than, you know, sitting in our beautiful Jubilee Auditorium, but really being a little bit distant from what's happening on the stage.
HEATHER: Well, and it is an exciting time because I think it's true that Edmonton Opera's going into the 60th season, right? Yeah. So are there any special things you're planning to do to celebrate the milestone specifically?
SUE: Yeah. Well, first, happy birthday to us next year. That's exciting. And we're still working that through Heather, you know. So we're excited, as I said, about our 60th season, but we don't have anything yet sort of specific to that celebration. So that's an ongoing conversation. Hmm.
HEATHER: Okay. Well, I'll look forward to finding out what the answers will be when I'm paying attention. It’ll be very exciting. Very exciting. Let's see. I'm thinking about the future, though, and I am thinking about your future as a leader in this space because. Because it's new, it's still pretty new. And so I'd like you to share a little bit about what you're excited about for your future there and maybe for the future of the company as well.
SUE: Sure. Well, the easy answer is I'm looking forward to getting a full season under my belt so that so that I kind of understand the rhythm and the cadence of, you know, pardon the pun, of just the work. I think there's a lot of there's a really interesting mix right now in leading Edmonton Opera between just attending to the operational pieces that matter in any organization. The policy development, the you know, we're looking at board renewal soon all of those kinds of pieces, you know, getting our staffing in place. And then at the same time there's this evolution thing that's happening. So we've just finished off our last strategic plan. So we're moving into strategic planning this spring, first with our team and then with our board. And so there's this real I don't want to call it whiplash, but sometimes it feels like that between attending to sort of the big strategic, you know, pieces where you get up on the balcony and you just look down at the field of play and you say, Huh, you know, how does this all fit together? And then the everyday operational work that that is just required for a for a company to run well. So I think in the in the next year, I'm really looking forward to being able to tackle both of those with the experience of a season under my belt. So that's really exciting. The other thing I'm excited about is just an opportunity to continue to think about how my leadership experiences kind of intersect with what it means to lead within the arts. And so you mentioned I've done some blog posts in the past and I really am thinking a lot about, you know, what are the kinds of things I want to talk about and write about down the road? Because I do think it's important to keep those conversations going. And it is always interesting to me, it has been forever to overlay industries or fields that are maybe different to bring insights into a new space. And so, yeah, it's one of the things that I actually love about the arts and creation is there's always an opportunity to bring in new material and think about, Hmm, how does this change the conversation? I would say it's not that much different in leadership if you're willing to go down that path. So, yeah, just really excited about what that all means for me as a as a leader and in my own learning as well.
HEATHER: I asked you to think about this question in terms of the future, but I think that where we are in this point in history, we're all still thinking about the pandemic, too. Some of the opportunities that the opera created during the pandemic are really interesting in terms of the programing that you did there before I know you arrived. Yeah, I was curious about how the. What the arts sector has learned during the pandemic is going to be influencing our future programing and thoughts about the opera.
SUE: This is a really interesting space, I think, for the arts and for many industries. Actually, I would say education is in the same sort of space and you're an educator as well, so you understand these things really well. I, I think the question that at least that I'm asking is what is that balance between digital, virtual and in-person physical and what are the benefits of each and quite frankly, the drawbacks. I think the pandemic taught us that there are ways to engage audiences when you're not physically connected in a room. But I think we also recognize that there's a different feeling. A different experience I suppose that happens when you're actually in a shared space together. So it's about, I guess, taking the best of those learnings and applying them, which sounds really glib and I wish I had a better answer. The other thing I think that we're seeing in the arts world, and we've got some Alberta based research actually done by a marketing firm called Stone Olafson that helped us understand this is that audiences are slower to come back in the arts. You know, we we certainly can understand this, you know, from our own lived experience and anecdotally, but the research is also demonstrating this. So, you know, if you go to a hockey game and I will confess I'm an enormous hockey fan as well as an arts fan. You know, people have come back in droves. But within the arts community that I think people are just slower to come back. And I don't know if it's because our audience is different or. Yeah, I'm not really sure of the why. The other thing we've learned partly from that research, but also partly as we see people coming back is they're looking for an experience. Obviously, that happens when you're in a theater or you know, what have you. But even beyond that, there's kind of a full kind of experiential thing that I think people are craving. And so really trying to figure out what does that mean and how do we provide that for our patrons or for members of the community when we're out in the world doing opera pub or whatever it is? So yeah, lots in there. I think to still unpack, it's going to be easier to pull the themes out, you know, five or ten years later, as is always the case.
HEATHER: Of course. And there's so many things that you said there about presence and experience that I think are really relevant. And some of the other things that I've heard people talking about in terms of pandemic learnings relate to thinking differently about accessibility and inclusion. And I'm sure that those are things that the opera is also starting to develop bit, you know, different policies around or different ways of connecting with those communities as well.
SUE: Yeah, we haven't gone down the policy route, but I would say that it's absolutely the conversation and that notion of, you know, inclusion and you know, all the other words obviously that go with that around equity and diversity are really, really important. And that has to do with, as, you know, like the stories we tell, but also who we engage, how they're engaged and what the opportunities are for people to participate, observe, watch, you know, take in shows, all those sorts of things. So it's it's really, really important work. I don't think really anyone has the answers, but I'm so glad the conversations are happening in the way that they are.
HEATHER: Well, thanks for that. That's really great. I feel like I've heard a lot of really interesting things about you and about your work as a leader. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to give some advice to future leaders or people who would be stepping into leadership roles in the arts and cultural sector.
SUE: Sure. That's a tough question. You know, the first thing that comes to mind to me isn't specific to arts and culture, and maybe I'll just tell a story about this. So a long time ago when I was leading within government, I sort of had to very quickly leave a position for medical reason. And there was a really lovely leader who worked with me who I thought would be great to take on that role. And I chatted with her about it and I said, you know, I would really encourage you to take on this acting role. It's probably going to be for a year. And she was very reluctant and she was an experienced professional. She was, you know, wise and had a great way with people. And I just kept thinking. Like, what.
is it that she thinks she's missing? Why is it that she's reluctant? And so I asked and she said, Sue, I. I just don't think I can do the things you do. And I said, What do you mean? And she said, Well, I don't think I can, you know, stand in front of a group and speak the way you speak. And I don't think I can, you know, take a complicated situation and make sense of it in the way that you do. And I thought, oh, she's equating leadership with the way that I lead. And so what I said to her is, look, we you have strengths that I don't have. And so and it again, it sounds a little bit trite, but I just so believe in it. You need to be the kind of leader that you are. You don't need to be the kind of leader that I am. There is space for all kinds of leadership. And sure, there's some you know, obviously when you're when you're leading, you have, you know, different accountabilities and responsibilities, but there's so many ways to do it. So I think the best advice I would give people around stepping into leadership is to think about, you know, what are your strengths, what kind of leader are you going to be and how can you play to those strengths in a way that's going to elevate whatever leadership situation that you're called to lead within? Because there isn't one way to do it, no matter what the world or the leadership books might tell you. Yeah, that's the best advice I would have for today.
HEATHER: That sounds great. And I'm going to ask you just to reflect on your current situation a little bit, because you're in a situation which is pretty common for organizational structures in the arts and cultural sector where you're doing shared leadership. And would you have any advice around that opportunity to do that kind of shared it's not really flat leadership, but there's a lot more collaboration that's involved there.
SUE: Yeah. So I will say just to sort of for the sake of transparency, that the the formal hierarchy of Edmonton Opera is not shared. So but by virtue of the people in the roles, we share leadership. So I'll just say that. And so officially I actually report to artistic director, which is I think, uncommon. I think often that's reversed or both people are sort of at the same level in the hierarchy reporting to the board. Be that as it may, it matters not for me. Many years ago in post-secondary, I actually had an opportunity to write a paper with a colleague of mine about this very thing, and we didn't call it shared leadership. We call it sharing leadership at the time she reported to me. But we really did collaborate in the leadership space. And so it's it's all about three things I would say. One is the individual characteristics that each person brings, and that can be an unpopular view in leadership because people, you know, you don't want to say that leaders are born. That doesn't feel okay. And yet if there's not a set of characteristics you're bringing to the table, things like authenticity and transparency, willingness to put your ego aside, a willingness to have a hard conversation and a skill set to do that; it's pretty tough to share leadership. And so there's that piece. And then there's also, from an organizational perspective, the willingness of your organization to allow that sort of thing. So we've got a wonderful board chair who meets with both Joel and I regularly and it's seamless. You know, he's not insisting that we go through this chain of command. And so organizationally, it really matters. There's a set of conditions that need to be there in order for it to happen. And then, of course, you know, broadening those ripples out further into how others in the world kind of accept your shared leadership. And so when we, you know, are having conversations with our partners within the arts community, with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra, with the Citadel, you know, this willingness to again engage with us on a level playing field. So. It's not easy work. But I think when the conditions are right, it's really rich and generative work.
HEATHER: Mm hmm. Yeah. That really resonates with me. And especially that it would be generative because you get the benefit, which I think probably compounds. It's probably not double. It's probably more than double when you get to bring great minds together.
SUE: I hope so. Yeah, That's the that's the goal for sure.
HEATHER: I think that that's it for me. Unless you would like to share some additional thoughts about Edmonton Opera, about leadership here, or perhaps something about what you'd love to see in the Edmonton arts scene.
SUE: Yeah, I guess mostly I just want to say thank you. This has been fun. It's rare that, you know, you get an hour to just think about and talk about leadership and in the arts. And so what a gift. It's been really wonderful. I guess that the thing that really resonates for me is just to invite people into the space of opera. I think, again, I'm a relative newcomer and any of the preconceived notions that folks might have about what that means and I would just invite them into the space and and to have an experience with us or with any other opera company. And yeah, just come play with us. Just come and explore. I think it's really important. It's an amazing art form. One that I obviously did not fully even appreciate before I came into this role. And so, yeah, just an open invitation to folks.
HEATHER: Mm hmm. Thank you. And did you want to add anything about your hopes for the Edmonton arts scene here?
SUE: Oh, if I could have a wish list for the Edmonton arts scene, I'm just going to be cheeky. Lots more funding. And so if there's any politicians listening, that would be great. I know you know what I think? Ah, I think the arts organizations in Edmonton are very interested in and committed to finding ways to work together, and I will say that can be hard sometimes. So I guess our our hope and dream for us is that we can continue to walk that sometimes challenging path and yeah, and find a way to elevate everybody together. I think it's important and especially at a time when resources are scarce. I think there are ways to do things together that really enable things that we just couldn't do alone. So that would be my wish.
HEATHER: It's just so much wonderful collaboration thinking there. It's great. Thank you so much.
SUE: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you, Heather.
HEATHER: Thanks so much, Sue, for being here and sharing this conversation with us. And thanks to everyone for listening.
OUTRO
This show was created by executive producer and host Annetta Latham, Technical Producer Paul Johnston and research assistants Terri Le Gear, Micah Carter and Ian Small. Theme music by Emily Darfur and cover art by Constanza Pacher. Special thanks to MacEwan University for their support and to our guests. Artful Conversations is a production of Artful Creative, all rights reserved.